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US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

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Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#41

Post by vkou »

equalunique wrote: post #39
vkou wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Invading a space is a crime, even if no other crime has been committed, be it in facilitating the invasion, or afterwards.

So if Y Combinator updated their Hacker News terms of service to say "vkou is no longer allowed on the site" you will turn yourself in to the police? My point is, you aren't doing yourself any favors by championing the ability of big institutions to put you in jail simply for accessing information.

Do you really think that there's no categorical difference between that, and what Assange did? It's an absurd analogy, with an absurd conclusion.

If you interpret a law absurdly, you will get absurd outcomes. Fortunately, we have judges and juries for that.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#42

Post by eesmith »

anfilt wrote: post #40

I am scratching my head to why cracking a password is a crime? Generally that means you already have a hash. Then your trying see if passwords match that hash... It's also not really cracking anything, but just guessing. That's just math. The crime was hacking the system to get the hash. Moreover, what about all those researchers who compiled lists of the most common passwords was the act of guessing those hashes a c…

Where does anyone say that cracking a password is a crime?

The allegation is that there was an agreement between Manning and Assange to crack the password for a US military network. Manning gave a hash to Assange, Assange tried (but failed) to crack it, and told Manning that the crack attempt failed. He also asked for more information that might help with the cracking.

The alleged illegal activity is the conspiracy to break into a protected computer system, not the (attempt at) cracking a password.

Those researchers are not doing their work as part of a conspiracy to break into other computer system. The feedback loop corresponding to 'asking for more information' by those carrying out illegal activities doesn't - at least for the most part - exist.

By analogy, locksport fans are not part of a conspiracy to break into people's houses, nor - at least for the most part - working with potential robbers to figure out how best to open a given house's lock.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#43

Post by eesmith »

sigzero wrote: post #17

The title means to me, that they know he "tried" but don't know if he was "successful".

The allegation is at https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/press-release/file/1153481... . All it says is:

> On or about March 10, 2010 ... Assange indicated that he has been trying to crack the password by stating he has "no luck so far".

I think that your inference is a reasonable to that description.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#44

Post by Fjolsvith »

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #26
Fjolsvith wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get sent to jail all the time for conspiring to commit a crime yet never following through with it. I spent 10 years in federal prison and met lots of those people. Do not verbally agree to any illegal act. Doing so is a crime, 1st amendment rights notwithstanding, and regardless of your intent of whether or not you will carry through with the act.

Would you be willing to share a bit of what happened, so that others know what not to do / why not to do it?

Just don't agree to any crime, whether verbally or in textual communication. If you are talking you can be overheard or recorded. You just need one or two witnesses to testify they heard or saw you discussing the crime.

Its still okay to nod and wink, though.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#45

Post by anfilt »

eesmith wrote: post #42
anfilt wrote: post #40

I am scratching my head to why cracking a password is a crime? Generally that means you already have a hash. Then your trying see if passwords match that hash... It's also not really cracking anything, but just guessing. That's just math. The crime was hacking the system to get the hash. Moreover, what about all those researchers who compiled lists of the most common passwords was the act of guessing those hashes a c…

Where does anyone say that cracking a password is a crime? The allegation is that there was an agreement between Manning and Assange to crack the password for a US military network. Manning gave a hash to Assange, Assange tried (but failed) to crack it, and told Manning that the crack attempt failed. He also asked for more information that might help with the cracking. The alleged illegal activity is the conspiracy t…

I see what your saying, and looked a little closer to the indictment.

However, I don't think it still quite the same thing as a key/lock. A password can contain information and as a Assange could have just been trying to see the password contained any useful information. What if the password was something like "I.like.blank" and it's known who the administrator of the computer system was. A hash is just a piece of information.

Like the details are not entirely clear in the indictment. The only thing clear is that he was given a hash. The indictment does not say if trying to guess the password hash was going to be used to login into the system. Although, it seems like that what the indictment assumes, and without a full transcript of the conversation I feel the indictment is pretty weak.

However, after reading there are multiple things that make really doubt who ever wrote that has any idea what they are talking about.

For instance: Manning did not have administrative-level privileges, and used special software, namely a Linux operating system, to access the computer file and obtain the portion of the password provided to Assange.

I was unaware linux was special software....

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#46

Post by eesmith »

anfilt wrote: post #45
eesmith wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does anyone say that cracking a password is a crime? The allegation is that there was an agreement between Manning and Assange to crack the password for a US military network. Manning gave a hash to Assange, Assange tried (but failed) to crack it, and told Manning that the crack attempt failed. He also asked for more information that might help with the cracking. The alleged illegal activity is the conspiracy t…

I see what your saying, and looked a little closer to the indictment. However, I don't think it still quite the same thing as a key/lock. A password can contain information and as a Assange could have just been trying to see the password contained any useful information. What if the password was something like "I.like. blank " and it's known who the administrator of the computer system was. A hash is just a piece of…

Analogies are imperfect. I don't think it's important to explore the flaws in the analogy to understand the point I explained earlier, which is that the indictment is not specifically about trying to crack a password.

"Assange could have ...". That is something for the defense to argue. This is an indictment. They need only convince a grand jury that there's a reasonable likelihood of conspiracy.

"Special" in this case almost certainly means "does not come as a standard part of computer she was using."

EDIT: I just remembered that a physical key can also contain information about the person. I had a landlord who keyed all the room doors on the building. He asked me for 4 digits, for the pin depths I wanted on my door. I used "2718", which hints at a math background. Feyman has a similar story about guessing safe combinations while at Los Alamos - I chose 2718 as an homage to that story. A key pattern or a combination is "just a piece of information".

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#47

Post by jillesvangurp »

duxup wrote: post #2

I think it is pretty well understood that they weren't successful. At least to me as far as if he deserves protection as a journalist, I don't think it matters if he was successful. You can help someone try to commit a crime and even if they're not successful, that can be a crime. If a journalist is given information that is one thing, offering or even helping someone commit a crime and their role has changed dramati…

This is not about the minor charges against this individual that helped expose some actual crimes against humanity. It's about spreading the message that whistle blowers face a life time of harassment and should fear for their freedom. It's vengeful and it is being orchestrated by the very people that got exposed.

The UN, excluding basically the US and not many others organized an international court of justice specifically to prosecute the severe type of crimes exposed by wikileaks. There are quite a few political and military (ex) leaders in the US that would have to fear for extradition to The Hague for these crimes if it wasn't for the fact that the US does not support this court and refuses to extradite US citizens for the severe types of crimes under the jurisdiction of this court. This will of course never happen.

The remarkable thing is actually how openly incompetent the whole thing is being conducted. Wouldn't it be embarrassing if the whole extradition thing collapses based on the notion that there is no good case that Assange actually did anything to make extradition possible. Years of effort and preparation and all they came up with is this. It's certainly putting the UK on the spot for basically very openly having to go through the motions of extraditing Assange on obviously BS charges to please a key ally. I imagine this might drag out for quite some time in the British courts so this has a lot of potential to get quite embarrassing for them.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#48

Post by duxup »

celticninja wrote: post #33
duxup wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A while ago "allegedly" was very popular with some TV news networks. They'd take some pure BS story from the internet that aligned with their politics and report it as "allegedly" to sound fair... and then list out the lies word for word as they came from some conspiracy site and then just move on. They'd sprinkle their whole broadcast withe these tidbits. You couldn't help but get the impression that controversy and…

Allegedly stop you getting sued.

Allegedly...

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#49

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

equalunique wrote: post #36
HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I translated this for you: Breaking into houses shouldn't be a crime in the first place. Stealing things, breaking stuff, or photographing ID's are crimes that people can be charged with, but I don't think that breaking into houses should be counted. See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as p…

>See where this falls apart? I can easily get into your home without damaging anything by picking the lock, and if someone was in my house, I'd want them out as fast as possible, and the police saying I have no right to do anything to them until they do something first is a bad idea- if they shoot me, how to I fire back? If they break my valuables, how do I react? Stealing is a crime. Shooting you is a crime. Simply…

The thing that was missing for me earlier was the intent part- thank you for mentioning that.

Furthermore, I'm sorry I attacked you- I took a bit too cynical of a position here- I do understand the concept of White Hatting, and recognize its importance. I have also dealt with one too many "White Hats" that expect a monetary reward for finding bugs when I'm not in a position to do so, and have then gone and attacked me hard. It's not fun.

Now, I have been, and still am, one of those people that do occasionally poke at other people's stuff, and when I find something, I will tip them off. This is also not my day job, and as such, outside of official bug reporting platforms, I always specify that I will not accept compensation for what I have found. Many people are not that principled, and that bothers me to no end.

Re: US Government Admits It Doesn’t Know If Assange Cracked Password for Manning

#50

Post by techntoke »

equalunique wrote: post #38
techntoke wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trespassing is a crime, as well as breaking and entering.

I am curious to know what your opinion is regarding the case of Aaron Swartz. Was 35 years appropriate?

Not at all, however I don't know the full extent of his charges. I don't actually even know if he actually hacked into anything or if he just abused the system he already had access to, in order to disseminate information that would normally cost money via a subscription. However, if I recall I believe he did break into a computer lab or something and hacked into the university computers to bypass their regular security. But it is my understanding the University itself didn't own the content he distributed either, so it isn't like he stole directly from the University but instead abused the access he had and likely violated some terms of service. I see it more as a civil issue, minus the breaking and entering.

However, there is strict law regarding hacking confidential government documents and trying to break into government systems. I see it a vastly different matter with very different implications.

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