Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions • Hacker News Board

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#41

Post by damnyou » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

impostir wrote: post #27

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #18

There are more choices than the extremes. But if those are the only choices offered, the citizenry may simply prefer more pollution over reductions in productivity or convenience. That's not an irrational choice, unless your prerogative is that there's no value in personal transportation, which is extreme. I see that a lot, and it's a first cousin of the "if it just saved one life" argument, which erroneously assumes…

They didn't block all personal transport, only most no-local vehicles. I would be a lot more convinced by the pro car arguments if they debated the actual issues. No one is saying destroy all cars and roads, the argument is on the importance of the car in the general transit system.

There is a very large and quite vocal "ban cars" contingent on Twitter.

I'm not personally a fan of how much the US prioritizes car transport, but I do see the utility of personal transportation.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#42

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

wincent wrote: post #24

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #18

There are more choices than the extremes. But if those are the only choices offered, the citizenry may simply prefer more pollution over reductions in productivity or convenience. That's not an irrational choice, unless your prerogative is that there's no value in personal transportation, which is extreme. I see that a lot, and it's a first cousin of the "if it just saved one life" argument, which erroneously assumes…

The plan as implemented in Madrid isn't very extreme though. There is a long list of exceptions for getting into the restricted zone, including going into a public parking lot. https://www.madrid.es/portales/munimadrid/es/Inicio/Movilida...

So, what I get from that is that they made sure it won't be a problem for anybody rich.

I would be angry if my citie's government imposed a restriction with such a list of exceptions.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#43

Post by nextos » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

I agree. I would go further by forcing all new cars to be plug-in hybrids as soon as it is practically doable. Maybe someone with ICE and battery expertise can chip in and clarify whether there are any pitfalls in this approach.

I simply don't understand why this is not enforced very soon. Many companies are producing inexpensive hybrids, so it sounds quite doable. And most people, at least in Europe, make really short trips on average.

Even if the electricity used to charge your car was produced by a coal plant, pollution could be controlled by centralized filters, etc. Clearly much better than having machines driving around cities and spreading toxic fumes and particles everywhere.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#44

Post by kikoreis » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

It may be two steps forward one step back but we're step by step cracking the urban mobility nut that bothered me the most in my teens. Rock on human powered city centres, I look forward to having my children enjoy them.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#45

Post by ummonk » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 4:30 PM UTC

tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

Nearly all pollution is due to older vehicles and diesel vehicles. Banning all non-electric cars is a rather sledgehammer way to deal with that.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#46

Post by gordaco » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

kzcqt wrote: post #12

dingallero wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much any city in EU has now some forms of traffic restriction policies. The same is true for where I live as well. The issue is not really the restriction, but the lack of alternatives. Very few cities have a decent metro zone: these cities are the only ones where I see no objections to stricter traffic policies. Most cities are only served by public _road_ transport services. This doesn't have the same level…

Yeah, thanks for this comment. That's what makes this matter worse: they restrict private transport, but public transport just gets worse and more expensive every year.

It should be mentioned here that in the case of Madrid, the metro is managed by a rightwing party who intentionally reduced the amount of trains when the car restrictions started, in order to cause discontent. See https://www.publico.es/politica/madrid-central-arranca-madri... (sorry for the link in Spanish).

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#47

Post by kingosticks » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

And just look at the black cabs. Currently excempt from the ULEZ with their old diesel engines running all day because..? Oh, money.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#48

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #42

wincent wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan as implemented in Madrid isn't very extreme though. There is a long list of exceptions for getting into the restricted zone, including going into a public parking lot. https://www.madrid.es/portales/munimadrid/es/Inicio/Movilida...

So, what I get from that is that they made sure it won't be a problem for anybody rich. I would be angry if my citie's government imposed a restriction with such a list of exceptions.

I still have to see a workable plan for emissions reduction that the rich cannot circumvent (except banning cars altogether, which would create outrage).

Tax entering the city center? Not a problem for the rich, who can pay easily. Tax cars depending on emissions? The same. Allow electric cars only? The rich have money to buy a Tesla. Allow only even or odd license plates depending on the day? The rich can buy two cars, one with odd and another with even license plate. Allow entering only if you use a paid public parking lot? The rich can pay for that. Disallow non-residents? The rich can buy a flat in the center.

Let's not fool ourselves, saving the planet and people's lungs mean that some things that are now widely reachable have to become scarce. And however we frame it, elites will always have better access to scarce resources. Still, I'd rather save the planet and my lungs than do nothing. And we can always tax the rich more to compensate.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#49

Post by wongarsu » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

kzcqt wrote: post #4

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #2

And the current mayor will probably lose office next month to parties that have promised to remove said restrictions, because in Spain hardly anyone cares about breathing poison. Sadly, being able to take and park cars everywhere seems to be a much higher priority for much of the population (I say this as a Spaniard). My hope is that the EU somehow intervenes and stops them from taking steps back in this respect. As…

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

The lifes of the few outweigh the convinience of the many. You are effectively arguing that because the majority wants to freely poison a minority (causing lung cancer and respiratory diseases), the major can't pass restrictions against that. This is a great example why a democracy has to have more principles than "what the majority decides goes".

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#50

Post by marcosdumay » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #48

marcosdumay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what I get from that is that they made sure it won't be a problem for anybody rich. I would be angry if my citie's government imposed a restriction with such a list of exceptions.

I still have to see a workable plan for emissions reduction that the rich cannot circumvent (except banning cars altogether, which would create outrage). Tax entering the city center? Not a problem for the rich, who can pay easily. Tax cars depending on emissions? The same. Allow electric cars only? The rich have money to buy a Tesla. Allow only even or odd license plates depending on the day? The rich can buy two ca…

A tax for entering the city center would be much more equitable.

My expectation is that this one plan creates exactly such a tax in practice, but it's privately collected by the few people rich enough to own land there.