I barely remember the forklifting... All I seem to remember is everyone saying "Oh, hello Ryo" and talking about "that day, when the snow turned to rain"
Did you see a black car?
Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
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Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#42Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.
A lot of people hated the forklift segment. “Why am I coming home from my job to relax by doing another job?” was a common refrain. The article is a stretch, but is is downright mundane compared to the explanations of game designs I’ve heard straight from the mouth of Japan’s rockstar designers who made them. They enjoy wearing sunglasses and black leather jackets and getting extremely abstract about game design.
Well the forklift part only happens for a very short window, so it sounds like those people didn't really play through it. The point was Ryo needed to raise money after a thing happens.
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#43Forklifts were a highlight for me. When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself what on earth you are doing. When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self,…
I was wracking my brain trying to think of early '80s job-simulator games, mostly because there aren't many at all. I'm not sure that I'd class Trashman, Paperboy or Tapper (fond of all 3 btw) as job-simulators. Other than driving and flightsims, I can't think of any from the early '80s :) Late '80s perhaps.
You're probably right.
Over time I conflate the concepts found in games like Skool Daze, Make a Chip, My Name is Uncle Groucho, Software Star, Grand National and suchlike that brought together semi-prosaic simulation tasks with a startling self-awareness.
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#44Forklifts were a highlight for me. When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself what on earth you are doing. When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self,…
A more apt comparison is probably 1999's Tokyo Bus Guide for Dreamcast. The developers of both games were probably aware of each other.
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.
Social issues definitely seem like part of it now, but Kotaku was disliked in hardcore communities well before Gamergate or any of that other nonsense. My recollections of late-2000s Kotaku are similar to how I feel today about a lot of tech publications where personal expertise in their subject area makes it painfully obvious that they don't really know what they're talking about. When you spend hundreds to thousand…
their media group was purchased in 2016 for $136 million and was sold recently for less than $50 million. in 2017 they generated $80 million in revenue at only a $20 million dollar loss.
https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/04/gizmodo-media-group-is-sol...
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#46Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.
A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.
The standard narrative is that Goobergrape tarnished Kotaku's reputation through organized hate campaigns because they are literal womanhating fascists or whatever. The truth is a bit more complex.
* Game journalists are often shit-tier journalists who cover games as part of paying their dues and building their portfolio so they can advance one step closer to their dream: covering Hollywood, or writing for The New Yorker or something
* Game journalists are often shit-tier gamers; if so, it's usually because they have little interest in the medium for its own merits. As a result, their writing tends to focus less on a game's merits as a game, and more on either needless politicking or fitting the game into a Procrustean bed of contemporary art. A great way to impress Kotaku, for instance, is to make a Duchampean un-game whose goals undermine the goals we normally associate with games in the name of making a Statement (remember, art is anti-kitsch). It will be unfun for the player, and will probably not sell well, but the likes of Kotaku will eat it up. We've seen this in the game journalist who couldn't cear the tutorial level of Cuphead, and the recent outcry from game journalists to add an easy mode to Sekiro to allow them to "experience" the game when for a From Software game, the difficulty IS the game experience.
* Game journalism sites are incestuously tied to game publishers. This is "access journalism". In exchange for the concession of early access to the latest games and other products, these news outlets agree to provide positive coverage only. A similar arrangement exists for Hollywood journalism. These outlets will tend to praise the studios that give them access and punish the studios that cater to actual gamers rather than gaming journalism.
There's probably more to it than this, but one thing I know: Gamergate wasn't responsible for Univision's decision to sell off Kotaku and the other Gawker/Gizmodo properties into private equity at a considerable loss.
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of people hated the forklift segment. “Why am I coming home from my job to relax by doing another job?” was a common refrain. The article is a stretch, but is is downright mundane compared to the explanations of game designs I’ve heard straight from the mouth of Japan’s rockstar designers who made them. They enjoy wearing sunglasses and black leather jackets and getting extremely abstract about game design.
That was the problem. The game's lead, Yu Suzuki, was not primarily a game designer. He was known to push ahead games with revolutionary graphics, see Space Harrier and Virtua Fighter. But he was nowhere near as good at game design as Miyamoto or Naka. I loved Shenmue for the immersive experience which was unchallenged at the time. It was the first of its kind, and for a long time no other open world game paid as muc…
AFAIK he also invented the quick time event in that game -- the scourge of 'interactive movie' games ever since.
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#48Loved the virtual flaneur aspect of this game, just wandering around the neighborhood, checking out shops, buying things, talking to people, heading home in the evening were so enjoyable. My Summer Car is the only modern game that comes to mind that captures the same kind of experience for me, if anyone has any other suggestions I'd love to hear them.
Talking to various inhabitants of the city was like 80% of the magic, for me. In fact, I usually made it a point to try to exhaust the population's dialogue options before the next "stage" of the game, which would cause their dialogue to change.
Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#49why would so many hate Kotaku? I never found anything wrong with it. Maybe even the liberal aspect should make it more appealing.
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Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of people hated the forklift segment. “Why am I coming home from my job to relax by doing another job?” was a common refrain. The article is a stretch, but is is downright mundane compared to the explanations of game designs I’ve heard straight from the mouth of Japan’s rockstar designers who made them. They enjoy wearing sunglasses and black leather jackets and getting extremely abstract about game design.
That was the problem. The game's lead, Yu Suzuki, was not primarily a game designer. He was known to push ahead games with revolutionary graphics, see Space Harrier and Virtua Fighter. But he was nowhere near as good at game design as Miyamoto or Naka. I loved Shenmue for the immersive experience which was unchallenged at the time. It was the first of its kind, and for a long time no other open world game paid as muc…
I think the design is pretty great, we have a virtual fighter combat system with training, (and many hardcore fighter game fans appreciate Virtua fighters mechanics) we have an arcade with actual games from the era, we have a gacha system. But the point wasn't to make an arcade, the point was to create something like a real world where you can walk around and explore. It's not about dopamine hits.
I think one famous mechanic besides 3d fighters that Yu made, was the arcade that has a vehicle you ride on.