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Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

washingtonpost.com

41–50 of 176 posts

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#41

What I find sad about this (and other articles like this) is when the time comes within the article to lay out how to avoid burnout and stress, the list nevver includes ways to spend less time working. It's almost like an unspoken rule. I know that to recommend that is to take a chance with your livelihood but I really hope that we can at least stop blaming ourselves for the ridiculous work/life ratio we currently mu…

> I'd like to get rid of most salaried positions and get people paid by the hour. I think having someone counting the number of hours you have your butt in a seat is a particularly degrading form of micromanagement, and I'm glad I don't have to endure it. Your TC is the only number that matters; there's no financial difference between getting paid 300k and no overtime and getting paid 200k + 100k overtime. It's silly…

We pay all our developers by the hour, and I think it's super important.

To correct your first misconception, we don't count peoples hours, people just tell us how many hours they worked each pay cycle.

We also pay 1.5X per hour for more than 40 hours per week if we asked you to work extra.

The primary advantage is that it aligns everyone incentives. In management I know that there is a very real cost to us if we ask people to work more hours.

It's important that we feel the sting, because it means that we are less likely ask people to work overtime, and only when it's really important.

It also lets people work more or less as they choose. Some people might choose to work 30 hour weeks for a while, and it doesn't cause resentment in other team members. People know they are getting paid less for doing it.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#42

What I find sad about this (and other articles like this) is when the time comes within the article to lay out how to avoid burnout and stress, the list nevver includes ways to spend less time working. It's almost like an unspoken rule. I know that to recommend that is to take a chance with your livelihood but I really hope that we can at least stop blaming ourselves for the ridiculous work/life ratio we currently mu…

I think employees also need to start taking care of themselves by not following up on every single spontaneous request and also to find something else in time when things turn too toxic. At least for me I can say that I don't follow up on every single request I get, especially when it's many little ones after "the heavy lifting" is done. Management must also learn that this is not bearable. Of course one needs to be…

This is it. When employees realize that only they can control what they respond to and what they do not, outside of direct requests from management, then they can manage their time for the life they want. Until then, people stuck thinking they can offload time management to their managers will keep wondering why they’re feeling overworked.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#43
post #7

> Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread We are making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning for companies. Quite often management lacks the emotional maturity needed in their positions that hides normal mistakes that are part of the job, push for unrealistic schedules and sometimes even get into bulling as a way of getting what they want. 8 hours plus commute time, that has increased as ci…

For many the commute more than hits your daily stress quota, even before work contributes. So you can end up starting your day stressed, be that public transport sardines and delays or playing car upon roads so gridlocked that the terminology car park seems more apt.

This to reach an office at some arbitrary time everybody seems to follow of the 8/9am start. Hence you have this sudden rush into cities around that time and again with the bulk leaving home in the early evening.

Travel outside those hours or against the commuter grain are such a joy, that the contrast is huge.

Whilst many companies offer flexible hours, they are still the exception and until more flexibility becomes more widespread along with home working or local hub/satellite office working. Such stress will play more and more a factor.

I'd dare say that having a stressful commute alone can on many levels kill of your entire morning productivity. Then you have the costs, adding more stress. Again costs that would be much cheaper (public transport trains here in the UK) if you travel outside peak hours. But then, roads much more pleasant off peak.

But a 4 day week can sure make a difference over a 5 day one. Working longer hours for 4 days, avoiding some of that peak commute stress and focusing on work, for those days and giving yourself 3 days of freedom. It is a fine balance over having 5 days of self imposed stress if your late home and the impact upon a social life. Which means you end up with a less quality social life and/or work life and by this approach you get quality time with both. Though not always suitable for all, it's more palatable for companies who are less flexible. At least what I've found. Though again, depends upon your job.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#44
post #7

> Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread We are making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning for companies. Quite often management lacks the emotional maturity needed in their positions that hides normal mistakes that are part of the job, push for unrealistic schedules and sometimes even get into bulling as a way of getting what they want. 8 hours plus commute time, that has increased as ci…

> making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning

such a great point. we seem to live in a zero-planning world now.

i'm surprised at how often, at least in app programming projects, i go to great lengths to show a manager how the app is progressing and where it's ultimately heading, and get no meaningful course correction or even a "that looks great"

then, the other shoe drops: after the app is complete and ready (or even after it's gone live) -- only then -- do they take the time to actually look at it and demand a change. and they don't care that it's harder to accomplish at that late stage, or that it damages programmer morale. they actually consider that to be a valid process.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#45
post #4

Pretty sure I burned myself out three years ago, while launching a big thing for my business. Basically, I ran a live course, and it happened right after some travel that had already been scheduled, so I had no downtime. It was all rush, rush, rush for 2-3 months straight. This basically set me up for the next several years in business, and I'm glad I did it, but ooof was the penalty high. This makes me think 1. Good…

Thank you for sharing this. I've been experiencing these exact symptoms for several months now and I've struggled to understand it. I don't like talking about it at work because I don't want to be seen as damaged/ineffective, but it's really weighing on me these days.

No problem. It can be a hard and long problem to solve, but it gets better with time and space.

Everyone's experience is different, but one thing I can say is this: the size of a problem is not necessarily proportional to the effect it will have on you in this state.

For instance, I had a reduced ability to multitask. Multitasking is one of those things where holding even three simple things in your head can be hard.

So, don't beat yourself up if an apparently simple situation is causing you stress. What seems simple may not be, given how humans are wired. And you have a reduced capacity while burnt out.

What you can do is look for things that trigger situations. Then see if you can reconfigure things so that the trigger is eliminated.

It's also helpful to look for physical signs. For example, in my case, I would get a tension in my neck, when inhaling. This happened after a stressor. Paying attention to this let me identify stressors and deal with them.

I also was able to work on it from the other end. Basically, my system was identifying minor threats as larger threats. So, I did something called square breathing. Basically: Stressor --> awareness --> hold breathe, count to 4 --> exhale, then inhale --> hold breathe while inhaled, count to four. Repeat if necessary.

It was like a pattern interrupt. The body wanted to go "minor stressor --> red alert!!!!!!". The breathing interrupted this and demonstrated to the body "see, no threat. Cancel the alarms".

After doing that for a few weeks I basically no longer have to do it, except in rare cases. Though that was some time in to the burnout, so some other stuff may have fixed itself in the meantime. YMMV, including with the specific way in which you do breathing.

Another thing: sleep as if your life depends on it. Good sleep helps every other thing and especially burnout.

I recognize that saying this can make the problem worse. So: if you are awake at night, and can't sleep: don't sweat it. Don't sweat the one offs. Instead, look for causes and solutions.

I improved my sleep by working on light exposure. I wrote more on that here a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19507938

Working on the general environment helped fixed my sleep. I still have occasional off nights, but the rhythm is better.

Sleep may not be your issue. The point is, to the extent you're able, get outside of a situation, analyze it, look for stressors, and consider the full rational situation. Basically your job is to teach your body to align its (presently damaged) threat response systems to the actual situation, which is presumably not an acute threat.

Some or much of this may not apply to you, so take the bits that do apply. And good luck!

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#46

I've been experiencing a type of burnout for the past 7 years that is mostly mental in nature. I get plenty of exercise and while my sleep schedule is abnormal, I still get normal amounts of sleep. Where the burnout comes in is when I get back the motivation to learn and program, and everything is going good, but then I start talking to recruiters and applying to jobs, and the farthest I get is the phone interview. I…

Sounds like you have what I call associative burnout.

It’s basically when your association with an activity becomes so negative that you no longer have the willpower to push yourself to perform the activity.

Your brain has basically puts work in the same category as holding your hand against a hot stove.

I was lucky to have my associations limited to certain employers and role descriptions but it was everything as real as the physical burnout I developed later on in life.

And as far as tips for recovery; the only thing I can think of is to learn to respect the association and stop trying to fight it with willpower. Just stay within the zone You do have motivation for/that does feel good and let it lead you wherever it needs to.

That might end up leading you to a different career but in my case it led me back to basically the same career but with a bunch of ‘red flag’ activities and behaviors (mine and others’) which mean I need to get the hell out of my current job.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#47

I've been experiencing a type of burnout for the past 7 years that is mostly mental in nature. I get plenty of exercise and while my sleep schedule is abnormal, I still get normal amounts of sleep. Where the burnout comes in is when I get back the motivation to learn and program, and everything is going good, but then I start talking to recruiters and applying to jobs, and the farthest I get is the phone interview. I…

Reduce exercise; that alone could deplete your "stress-alleviating well". Obviously, you (unconsciously) see your work as pointless and it probably is; many jobs these days are just useless busywork, even at top companies, even with dubious moral background. Market might also force you to unlearn better ways to program, e.g. if you are forced to switch to JavaScript from a better language, so motivation can get a hit from that as well. You might also notice that most of jobs you can apply to or are contacted by recruiters for are jobs nobody wants to do and for meaningful jobs it's all about networking, reducing motivation to bother to minimum.

The only way I see is to study new things on your own and do your own stuff if you find something you like; to survive try to get some part-time/remote work until you can reap fruits of your labor later. By all means avoid people that are putting you down; they do it so that they could dominate you and feel better about themselves. Start practicing some forgotten virtues, that would make you unique and stand out.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#48
post #7

> Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread We are making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning for companies. Quite often management lacks the emotional maturity needed in their positions that hides normal mistakes that are part of the job, push for unrealistic schedules and sometimes even get into bulling as a way of getting what they want. 8 hours plus commute time, that has increased as ci…

Crazy idea: what if management was a licensed, regulated career, like traditional engineering, or being a nurse. Like if you have more than 5 "direct reports", you need to get a certification?

Yeah let's further reduce the ability to switch job, there are already so many opportunities...

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#49
What exhausts me is the people, the politics, the engineering egos, and the endless tolerance of companies to spend months of time working through previously obviously poor decisions and no tolerance for fixing the attitudes that created them. You’re called perfectionist engineer, regardless of how little effort or time it takes to correct the long term trajectory for your project. There’s little connection to clear organized thinking and the enjoyment of the work, it’s like everyone has gone mad and can’t see the obvious right in front of their face at times.

Re: Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread

#50
post #7

> Burnout caused by chronic stress is widespread We are making employees lives miserable to reduce the need of planning for companies. Quite often management lacks the emotional maturity needed in their positions that hides normal mistakes that are part of the job, push for unrealistic schedules and sometimes even get into bulling as a way of getting what they want. 8 hours plus commute time, that has increased as ci…

Crazy idea: what if management was a licensed, regulated career, like traditional engineering, or being a nurse. Like if you have more than 5 "direct reports", you need to get a certification?

I don't think there's any link between certification and competency.

Here in Australia we're going mad for certifications. I had a friend who looked after kids in an after school program. A minimum wage job, but one that she loved. She'd been doing it for nearly 20 years. The government mandated that she needed a $2500 certificate in order to continue to do the job she'd been doing for two decades.

I don't believe there was anything that this certification could have taught her that she didn't already know. Heck, she should have been the one teaching the course. Instead it was being run by an organisation that specialised in running these kinds of certification programs, but certainly didn't specialise in the subject matter.

If we were to mandate certification for managers, my concern would be that - at best - it would end up as just another piece of paper. At worst, it would actively exclude the people who were most qualified and competent, like it did with my friend.

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