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Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

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Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#41

Post by crux_ »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #38
crux_ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...

Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?

They chose the headline; I did not -- and it seems pretty clear from more than just the headline that the AdGrok folks value anti-PC posturing quite highly.

If it were me choosing the headline, and I had a desire to reference Shackleton's journey, what's wrong with "Wanted for hazardous journey: [...]"?

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#42

Post by JabavuAdams »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #38
crux_ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...

Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?

Dude, we're not talking about The 300 here. It's not a scholarly work, a historical piece, nor even a stand-up-comedy routine. It's a job ad. That matters.

HP Lovecraft's poem "On the Creation of the Nigger" is also a historical document from a century ago. We should not bury it, as it's an important document. I like the Cthulhu mythos, but I wouldn't quote that poem in a job ad in 2010.

Now of course people will reply "saying 'Men' isn't as bad as saying 'Nigger'", and miss the point.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#43

Post by hop »

lian wrote: post #32

Dude, my literacy is pretty up there, and I didn't recognize the quote. I don't know that it would really tarnish its historical relevance to write "Men (or women) wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring". If their Steve Jobs quote is eligible for paraphrasing in order to seem original, I don't know why an old newspaper clipping isn't in order to seem like an equal-opportunity employer.

Its a historical quote from Ernest Shackleton when he was recruiting the crew for infamous 1914 Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition with ads in London newspapers that read:

MEN WANTED: For hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success. Sir Ernest Shackleton.

I very highly recommend the book - http://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfre...

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#44

Post by eru »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #38
crux_ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...

Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?

In practice, most people prefer a. Compare history books from different ages.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#45

Post by ryanwaggoner »

crux_ wrote: post #41
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their choice of headline is a reference to a historical document from almost a century ago. Would it be better if we: a) rewrite history, or b) never reference it?

They chose the headline; I did not -- and it seems pretty clear from more than just the headline that the AdGrok folks value anti-PC posturing quite highly. If it were me choosing the headline, and I had a desire to reference Shackleton's journey, what's wrong with "Wanted for hazardous journey: [...]"?

First, point to anything else in that blog post that indicates any kind of "anti-PC posturing". Specifically anything that reveals any kind of gender bias. I'm guessing that you can't without revealing some gender biases of your own, but try me.

Second, there's a difference between "anti-PC" and anti-equality.

For example, I can say "fuck political correctness" because I think running around mincing your words in a (pointless and futile) attempt to avoid offending anyone is cowardly, but that doesn't mean that I hate minorities or am against equality. It just means that I think "political correctness" is stupid. If you're offended by my opinions, that's really not my problem; it's yours.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#46

Post by lhnn »

I support this headline. I'm sure these men would hire a female capable of providing the talent they require, and of fitting in with the culture of their workplace. I long to escape to such a place that doesn't cater to people looking for a reason to be offended, when no offense is warranted or intended.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#47

Post by anigbrowl »

crux_ wrote: post #25
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #21

Sexist! Just kidding...people are too sensitive. http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm

Well, call me too sensitive then: it is sexist. If they need to explicitly mention that "women are welcome" in a footnote, that pretty much confirms that their choice of headline is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome. I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive. You'd think it would be smarter to err in the other direction...

is saying that women are somewhat less than welcome.

It's more of a signal to marketing professionals. That 'men wanted for hazardous journey' ad is famous enough to be cited in just about any textbook/college course on advertising and marketing - it generated a huge volume of replies when published, confounding the intuitive belief that effective advertising requires exclusive focus on the positive. They're seeking to attract people with a similar ability to see the big picture (both superficially and in the abstracted context of the ad biz), and emphasizing that their actual hiring will be extremely selective.

You probably don't believe that the job is actually physically hazardous (I hope), and can appreciate the metaphorical use of the quotation in relation to the uncertainty of disrupting an extremely competitive established market. Within that context, it makes no sense to interpret a single word in purely literal terms, any more than it's sensible to think that citing Alice in Wonderland means one is addressing oneself exclusively to people named Alice.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#48

Post by lian »

hop wrote: post #43
lian wrote: post #32

Dude, my literacy is pretty up there, and I didn't recognize the quote. I don't know that it would really tarnish its historical relevance to write "Men (or women) wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring". If their Steve Jobs quote is eligible for paraphrasing in order to seem original, I don't know why an old newspaper clipping isn't in order to seem like an equal-opportunity employer.

Its a historical quote from Ernest Shackleton when he was recruiting the crew for infamous 1914 Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition with ads in London newspapers that read: MEN WANTED: For hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success. Sir Ernest Shackleton. I very highly recommend the book - http://www.a…

Yes, clearly we've all realized this by now.

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#49

Post by ryanwaggoner »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #27
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #21

Sexist! Just kidding...people are too sensitive. http://www.antarctic-circle.org/advert.htm

> Just kidding...people are too sensitive Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't. While there are surely people who are too sensitive, the dismissal-of-complaint-by-invocation-of-oversensitiveness-by-non-aggrieved-group is a classic pattern too. I.e. it's easy to say someone's oversensitive, if you don't care about (or struggle against) what they do.

Well, actually, it's not up to us to decide whether it is or it isn't.

Bullshit. Who, other than me, should have the right to decide if my statement is too offensive to be spoken? It is absolutely up to the individual to decide if someone else's offense at your statements or opinions is due to oversensitivity or you being wrong. Who else should decide, if not the individual with the opinion in question?

Re: Men wanted for hazardous journey: AdGrok (YC S10) is hiring.

#50

Post by stonemetal »

crux_ wrote: post #35
yalurker wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't see why being too sensitive is seen as somehow worse in the startup/developer community than being too insensitive." I'll venture a guess: because many of us find it incredibly tiring and annoying to have to constantly stop and think "is there any possible way the following sentence could be interpreted as prejudiced against any group?" when communicating. If person A says something non-sexual and person B f…

Do you really think the developer world, particularly within startups, doesn't have a serious problem with sexism?

Yes, I believe that among developers in general and software startups in particular you will find an average to below average number of people with a sexism problem. You will however find an above average number of people who a) can't take a joke b) are somewhat bone headed in making inappropriate jokes. c) people who fall in to categories A and B at the same time.
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