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The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

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Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#41

Post by hnick »

dragontamer wrote: post #12
jawns wrote: post #4

I remember starting this game at mid-day and having no idea that I would end up building paperclips well into the night. What impressed me the most was how the "secret" gradually unfolded, so that you were already hooked and felt a compulsion to continue game play, even after it became clear that this wasn't the innocuous game you thought it was at first. It led me to build a clicker game that also has more to it tha…

Clicker Heroes is a shameless clicker-clone, but one of the better ones. I think universal paperclips is definitely one of the best idle games, but I'd give Clicker Heroes (the original) a strong contender. I know Clicker Heroes 2 is out, but I haven't tried it yet myself. Clicker Heroes goes for the shameless simplicity of growth, but its got the biggest numbers and the most "acceleration" out of any clicker game I'…

Clicker Heroes was my first exposure. It sounded ridiculous but people kept playing these games so I gave it a try.

Ended up deep enough to install AutoHotkey. Steam says over 500 hours played. Oops.

Universal Paperclips is great, and I like that I can "win" in a few hours. It wasn't really difficult, except once the drifters started killing me off. The balance of resources into my drone army was confusing and I needed the wiki for that.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#42

Post by Fellshard »

grawprog wrote: post #35
cwkoss wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lurked the incremental game community for nearly a decade now. Some good ones to google if anyone is looking for more: A Dark Room, Shark Game, Idling through Loops, Idle Skilling, Trimps, Idling to rule the gods, Derivative Clicker, Factory Idle. A friend and I wrote "Dungeons of Derp" an (semi-unfinished) idle/incremental dungeoncrawler - "diablo 2 but with autonomous hero": https://idle-dungeon.firebaseapp.co…

I tried A Dark Room. Then i realized it was everything addicting about RPGs distilled down to some bars that you click to fill. It reminded me of my days being addicted to Diablo 2. They are straight up skinner boxes. Clicker games are the video game equivalent of crack. They're basically dopamine stimulation buttons. Keep clicking and you'll eventually be rewarded by that little burst of feel good juice when you rea…

'A Dark Room' is what we'd call an _incremental_ game, because it's not as much about clicking as most 'clicker' games tend to be - it's a game that unfolds, shifting mechanics and goals over time.

Most clicker games don't do much unfolding, and instead just become time management toys, trying to maximize rate of growth between extended periods of idleness. And - this is key - most clicker games aren't incremental games. Incremental games at least have some interesting draw: the game isn't what it at first appears to be. Clickers, on the other hand, are exactly what they appear to be.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#43

Post by hnick »

mrob wrote: post #9
kbenson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never got past the later stage... "competition". I should look up to see if there was much more after that and what I missed, since I doubt I'll go through it all again.

I stopped playing prematurely at first because I thought I'd seen everything. You haven't seen it all until the end credits play.

You aren't done until every atom in the universe is part of a paperclip. Even then, there may be other universes out there.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#44

Post by gotocake »

otakucode wrote: post #24

I missed out on Universal Paperclips, but I immediately love the idea. The notion of the Paperclip AI that destroys humanity to build paperclips is a sublime illustration of how badly computer scientists need to take a few philosophy courses to broaden their thinking, as is its facile allure. (Most reasonable fears of AI are fears around what we will use it to do to others, not what it will do to us, as all conflict…

Having humans being the ones playing Universal Paperclips is a very interesting phenomenon, though. What does it say about us that as we fear a paperclip automaton annihilating us, we find it irresistable just to see some numbers get bigger? Would anyone NEED to build a complex AI in order to get us to annihilate ourselves? Would calling it Universal Banknotes make it clearer?

It says that when it comes to a Skinner box, we’re the same as those poor rats. It also suggests that keeping humanity busy while an AI turns us into paper clips would be a more trivial exercise than some might hope.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#45

Post by dwd »

theoh wrote: post #22

Could have been a lot more about Bostrom's ideas in this article, given the title. But my hunch is that the kind of philosophy enthusiast who writes for the New Yorker doesn't want to dwell on Bostrom's ideas (or those Less Wrong guys) in any way; it's a question of seriousness.

Good way to make your article about games and AI (fun and cool stuff) very depressing.

The AI does not hate you, nor does it love you, but you are made out of atoms which it can use for something else. The AI runs on a different timescale than you do; by the time your neurons finish thinking the words "I should do something" you have already lost. - Eliezer Yudkowsky

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#46

Post by dwd »

dragontamer wrote: post #36
grawprog wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried A Dark Room. Then i realized it was everything addicting about RPGs distilled down to some bars that you click to fill. It reminded me of my days being addicted to Diablo 2. They are straight up skinner boxes. Clicker games are the video game equivalent of crack. They're basically dopamine stimulation buttons. Keep clicking and you'll eventually be rewarded by that little burst of feel good juice when you rea…

That's certainly one way to think about clicker games, and it probably applies to most clicker games I know of. However, a GOOD clicker game (such as one with Universal Paperclips) recognizes that the genre is not about dopamine rushes. Instead, a good clicker game is really a management simulator. Factorio is probably the best example: build your factory correctly, and you never have to lift a finger to do any work…

A few highly addictive browser-based MMO management games came out in the early/mid 2000s.

OGame, Travian and Inselkampf were three I spent some time in. On top of the simple clicking to maximise your holdings in-game, there was an additional layer of alliance/guild participation and meta game much like EVE Online. You tended to spend more time outside the actual game: discussing strategy, diplomacy and building tools.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#47

Post by shostack »

andybak wrote: post #23

One day I'll write that essay on connection between idle/clicker/incremental games and the Buddhist concept of attachment. Maybe.

Oddly enough, I'm hooked on Kittens Game, which I consider far superior to the Paperclip game. The level of depth is astounding.

That said, I've used it to meditate on attachment, automation, abstraction, and other interesting concepts. It has also helped me think about prioritizing things at work in terms of the whole "build it quickly, or automate it for future gains" debate that often arises.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#48

Post by shostack »

sp332 wrote: post #20
monocasa wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kittens has eaten more of my time than I'd prefer to admit. http://bloodrizer.ru/games/kittens/

Like, this game will eat months of your time. You don't have to babysit it or anything, but it just keeps going forever.

Currently have 2582.2 hours played on the Android version according to its stats.

The game is amazing. There's an active subreddit as well where the dev is active.

Just as I think I'm getting to the next phase and finally to "late game" someone comes in and posts something insane like "I now am net positive on unobtainium from resetting even after buying everything and maxing chronospheres."

My jaw literally dropped as I'm finally hitting the infinite time crystal smash loop and even that took forever.

Re: The Unexpected Philosophical Depths of the Clicker Game Universal Paperclips

#50

Post by comboy »

westpfelia wrote: post #49

As someone who has a real problem with addiction to idle/clicker games this thread is not good.

Right, right. So which ones do you recommend the most?

Seems a bit hard to find something comparable to paperclips, most even deny advantage of understanding exp growth.

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