25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society • Hacker News Board

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#41

Post by arminiusreturns » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

bhaak wrote: post #18

arminiusreturns wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people don't realize that in the US at least, there is a semi-secret banking blacklist, where banks will just deny you all services. I know because I managed to get on it, and then managed to get off it, no easy feat. How I got there is another story, but banks are not a friend of the people, and moves towards a cashless society give them even more power, something they already have too much of. Sidenote: I…

I enjoy the "how I almost became a millionaire because of Bitcoin" stories. I've read a lot of them online and I know surprisingly many people personally that have such a story to share. Those stories tell you a lot about the person in question. How it didn't work out and how they cope with that "loss". Yours is the first where someone coped out because not being satisfied with the kind of privacy Bitcoin provides.

Sometimes having principles and sticking to them puts me in unfavorable situations like that, but to be honest I still feel the same way about bitcoin. Because of missing out though I never really got back into the coin scene, but I do like monero/zcash for their privacy features, but I have a hard time buying the idea that any coin based off wasting compute cycles and energy on arbitrary math is going to be a real coin of the future.

A coin that uses all that compute to work on protein folding or other big problems that also has privacy would be something I would really like to see.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#42

Post by kalleboo » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

sbacic wrote: post #4

I've recently visited London for the first time. What really stunned me was the huge number of homeless people. They were practically everywhere. And they all relied on cash donations. I wonder what will happen to these people as society becomes more and more cashless? What effect will it have on crime?

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/09/sweden-how-cas...

> SituationSthlm is a Swedish magazine similar to the UK’s Big Issue, sold by homeless people in Stockholm. But the sellers couldn’t sell magazines to people who didn’t carry cash. The solution? A badge for sellers with a QR payment code. Buyers scan it with their phone, make a digital payment using the mobile payment system Swish, and then the seller collects their cash from the SituationStklm offices soon after.

> “This solution originated to help sell magazines, but soon showed other benefits. It helped homeless people carry less cash – which reduced their vulnerability to theft, and also gave them a way to budget by leaving their money at the office until they needed it,” said the report.

> The researchers also found that Sweden had benefited from lower crime and higher tax revenues as cash usage had fallen, but it added: “We must not demonise those who operate in cash, when many have no choice.”

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#43

Post by ACS_Solver » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #39

ACS_Solver wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is incorrect for EU countries. The EU, through Directive 2014/92, mandates that banks cannot refuse basic accounts to legal EU residents (unless they believe you're laundering money or financing terror groups). I live in an essentially cashless country, but even countries where cash is still used would be very hard to live in without a bank account, so that legislation is important.

> unless they believe you're laundering money or financing terror groups Do they have to prove this, or is their belief enough? And are we okay with the punishment for money laundering being death by starvation and homelessness?

There's a fairly high burden on the financial institution, they have to show you're not complying with anti-laundering legislation, but that falls short of proving actual money laundering. So there's a problem. I think the way it would work legally is that a person would automatically regain access to a bank account if they receive welfare, as said welfare would then be income with a known legal origin, but I am not sure about that.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#44

Post by Meekro » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

sbacic wrote: post #4

I've recently visited London for the first time. What really stunned me was the huge number of homeless people. They were practically everywhere. And they all relied on cash donations. I wonder what will happen to these people as society becomes more and more cashless? What effect will it have on crime?

Speaking just to crime, there are still about 10 bank robberies per day in the US[1], plus many crimes against individuals where the goal is to obtain cash. I would think that a cashless society would have much less of this?

[1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-20...

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#45

Post by _red » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

cascom wrote: post #2

The implications of a cashless society on privacy are terrifying

The monetary implications are even scarier.

The real reason they are pushing for "cashless society" is so they can impose negative interest rates. Since you won't have the option to withdraw your funds into cashier, you bank balance will be debited monthly as a privilege for giving the bank money.

Its their next hairbrained scheme to try and shore up their ponzi-scheme economy.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#46

Post by hocuspocus » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

frosted-flakes wrote: post #33

mschuetz wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of not having your own private bank account that isn't shared with your significant other or anyone else baffles me.

Why? It baffles me that a husband and wife don't trust each other enough to pool their resources.

Not having the freedom to keep some money separately and use it as you see fit sounds so 1950.

We have a joint credit card but I don't see why we'd ever need a joint bank account.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#47

Post by sametmax » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

Another problem is that no society is perfect. And even if it were, it won't stay that way.

There is a need for a small grey area in any system to stay sane, where people can workaround the limitations of said system.

Yes, it will be abused, and also used for nefarious purposes. But it's better than the alternative.

You need people to sometimes be able to do things the state doesn't approve. You need children to be able to mess around without parent knowing. You need to be able to go to a gay bar without living a trace. You need to be able to give cash to a homeless without him being part of the system.

Also if you make it very hard to try new things that are illegal or immoral now, your society will get stuck and lose a lot of opportunities to evolve.

Yes, it would be better to change the system to make it better first. But it's a slow and unreliable process, especially if you can't prove that your way is ok. So having little pocket of experimentation is important, and cash allows that.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#48

Post by MisterTea » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

Meekro wrote: post #44

sbacic wrote: post #4

I've recently visited London for the first time. What really stunned me was the huge number of homeless people. They were practically everywhere. And they all relied on cash donations. I wonder what will happen to these people as society becomes more and more cashless? What effect will it have on crime?

Speaking just to crime, there are still about 10 bank robberies per day in the US[1], plus many crimes against individuals where the goal is to obtain cash. I would think that a cashless society would have much less of this? [1] https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/bank-crime-statistics-20...

Cash is just a bartering medium. You can barter using stolen valuables. Cashless won't stop poverty and desperation. People will adapt and we'll see a shift in crimes.

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#49

Post by Hates_ » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

This goes alongside the campaign on protecting cash as a payment option: https://campaigns.which.co.uk/freedom-to-pay/

Re: 25M Brits would struggle in a cashless society

#50

Post by frosted-flakes » Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

hocuspocus wrote: post #46

frosted-flakes wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It baffles me that a husband and wife don't trust each other enough to pool their resources.

Not having the freedom to keep some money separately and use it as you see fit sounds so 1950. We have a joint credit card but I don't see why we'd ever need a joint bank account.

I'm curious; how do you decide who pays for what? If you're splitting the bills for everything anyway, and since you've dedicated your lives to each other (presumably, if you're married), it feels like a pointless exercise to keep separate finances.