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Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

nytimes.com

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Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#41

Post by honestoHeminway »

cjbprime wrote: post #37
tuna-piano wrote: post #24

In the likely event that this is another MCAS related crash, I see only two possible reasons: 1. Boeing's suggested process (including flipping the two trim switches and spinning a wheel) does not work for some reason. -or- 2. The Ethiopian pilots did not follow this process. I see #1 as putting a huge, huge amount of blame on Boeing and the FAA - especially given their months of "safe plane" reaction after Lion Air…

I think both end up with blame on Boeing. If a discussion in world news isn't enough to prepare an experienced 737 pilot (ten years!) to counteract spurious MCAS, then nothing is, at least to the level of safety expected in airline travel. A plausible explanation for (1) that I've seen discussed is that, after disabling the auto trim, it may be impossible to manually re-trim while the yoke's pulled back, without firs…

So basically the auto-trim gets the plane into a impossible to recover from position at start? Seems plausible.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#42

Post by honestoHeminway »

jquery wrote: post #2

Before the wild speculation, here's some words from an actual aviation expert, Greg Feith: It is sad to hear some of the “junior investigator” talking heads make a storyline out of factoids or no facts about the 737 MAX. They embellish their credentials to sound smart when in fact they have no clue and say things about analyzing data that doesn’t exist.... A good friend of mine who is a former airline captain and fli…

We know the mustache twirlling villians- we see them every day at our own software projects. People who will shortcut to meet deadlines at all costs. People who will knowingly ducttape horrible solutions together and ship that to the customer, blaming the customer when the ducttape falls apart. Boeings denial and redirect statements reek of the the usual spokesman boolshit we have so often in my industry.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#43

Post by ams6110 »

tuna-piano wrote: post #22
jquery wrote: post #2

Before the wild speculation, here's some words from an actual aviation expert, Greg Feith: It is sad to hear some of the “junior investigator” talking heads make a storyline out of factoids or no facts about the 737 MAX. They embellish their credentials to sound smart when in fact they have no clue and say things about analyzing data that doesn’t exist.... A good friend of mine who is a former airline captain and fli…

Ethiopian has ~100 planes flying around on any given day, and hasn't had a serious crash in 9 years. Presumably the skill of their pilots and maintenance crews is pretty similiar across MAX and non-MAX planes. If their maintenance crew and pilots were solely to blame, I would expect to see a good deal more Ethiopian planes crashing. Of course, it could be (and maybe even is likely) that a properly trained maintenance…

> Ethiopian has ~100 planes flying around on any given day, and hasn't had a serious crash in 9 years

They had one last week.

Southwest, by comparison, has been flying since 1967. They operate over 700 aircraft, all of them 737s including the new MAX variant. They've never had a serious crash and in their history have had 3 deaths as a result of accidents or incidents.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#44

Post by inferiorhuman »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #29
leggomylibro wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about what you call '#2' the other day, when a family member remarked that the FAA was right to keep the planes in the sky because US airline unions felt like their pilots had received adequate advice and information from Boeing. I'm not sure where they got that from, but why would it be okay if the US pilots got training immediately, while others had to wait?

It would be extremely irregular for an aviation company to give training / instruction to exclusive clubs. The reality is that occident pilots tend to be a cut above the rest of the world. American Airline pilots tend to have military aviation experience and/or thousands of hours of experience. Pilots in less developed nations tend to have significantly less training, I heard the copilot of the lion air flight only h…

Pilots in less developed nations tend to have significantly less training

And yet at least one previous Lion Air crew had a run-in with MCAS and survived.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#45

Post by raverbashing »

tuna-piano wrote: post #24

In the likely event that this is another MCAS related crash, I see only two possible reasons: 1. Boeing's suggested process (including flipping the two trim switches and spinning a wheel) does not work for some reason. -or- 2. The Ethiopian pilots did not follow this process. I see #1 as putting a huge, huge amount of blame on Boeing and the FAA - especially given their months of "safe plane" reaction after Lion Air…

1 can only be done after the problem is detected, which by then your plane is pointing dangerously down

This happens in a critical time of flight, when pilots are busy with other tasks and are at a low altitude (less time to fix any problems).

So no, Boeing's process is not a good solution.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#46

Post by inferiorhuman »

paulmd wrote: post #26
jquery wrote: post #2

Before the wild speculation, here's some words from an actual aviation expert, Greg Feith: It is sad to hear some of the “junior investigator” talking heads make a storyline out of factoids or no facts about the 737 MAX. They embellish their credentials to sound smart when in fact they have no clue and say things about analyzing data that doesn’t exist.... A good friend of mine who is a former airline captain and fli…

He is right about one thing - looking at the maintenance logbook is a standard part of any preflight. If you looked at the logbook and saw that the maintenance team had been dueling with the MCAS system and that it had activated inappropriately on four prior occasions, that really should have been at the front of their minds. It seriously is a standard heads-up to alert you to any potential issues that might occur wi…

He is right about one thing - looking at the maintenance logbook is a standard part of any preflight. If you looked at the logbook and saw that the maintenance team had been dueling with the MCAS system and that it had activated inappropriately on four prior occasions, that really should have been at the front of their minds.

You're absolutely right. Unfortunately the crew read the logbook and saw an STS (speed trim system) issue written up. When flight 610's crew looked at the logbook, nobody outside the Brazilian authorities knew what MCAS was or to expect anything like it.

STS trims the stabilizer under different conditions than MCAS and typically trims in a counter-intuitive manner, conditioning pilots to non-intuitive trim adjustments in normal flight. STS can be turned off for the duration by applying pressure in the opposite direction on the yoke, MCAS cannot.

With that in mind, yeah, the crew on flight 610 had a malfunction at the front of their minds. Just not the kind that was going to transpire.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#47

Post by Moru »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #28
exodust wrote: post #27

"You're in private mode" (no article for me). Is there another way to view the text?

http://archive.is/Qk7PU

"Hmm. We’re having trouble finding that site."

Using cloudflares DNS 1.1.1.1. Seems that does not work since a while.

https://community.cloudflare.com/t/1-1-1-1-does-not-resolve-...

A lot of blame to and from who is responsible for the problem, still no solution apparently.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#48

Post by tapland »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #29
leggomylibro wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about what you call '#2' the other day, when a family member remarked that the FAA was right to keep the planes in the sky because US airline unions felt like their pilots had received adequate advice and information from Boeing. I'm not sure where they got that from, but why would it be okay if the US pilots got training immediately, while others had to wait?

It would be extremely irregular for an aviation company to give training / instruction to exclusive clubs. The reality is that occident pilots tend to be a cut above the rest of the world. American Airline pilots tend to have military aviation experience and/or thousands of hours of experience. Pilots in less developed nations tend to have significantly less training, I heard the copilot of the lion air flight only h…

The problem is mostly regulations allowing co-pilots to join in with extremely little experience. That was not the case here.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#49

Post by isostatic »

peteretep wrote: post #14
jquery wrote: post #2

Before the wild speculation, here's some words from an actual aviation expert, Greg Feith: It is sad to hear some of the “junior investigator” talking heads make a storyline out of factoids or no facts about the 737 MAX. They embellish their credentials to sound smart when in fact they have no clue and say things about analyzing data that doesn’t exist.... A good friend of mine who is a former airline captain and fli…

> Before the wild speculation The wild speculation presumably includes British and Australian authorities — who have exemplary safety records, are nobody’s fools, and are very definitely run by very very senior and experienced people — banning the planes.

Former head of NTSB said Boeing should have grounded the planes straight away

https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/former-ntsb-boss-wont-fly-on-b...

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#50

Post by ulfw »

tuna-piano wrote: post #24

In the likely event that this is another MCAS related crash, I see only two possible reasons: 1. Boeing's suggested process (including flipping the two trim switches and spinning a wheel) does not work for some reason. -or- 2. The Ethiopian pilots did not follow this process. I see #1 as putting a huge, huge amount of blame on Boeing and the FAA - especially given their months of "safe plane" reaction after Lion Air…

There is always option 3. Delay in processing of information and conflict resolution. It is possible the captains took to long to understand what is wrong, training or not and do the appropriate maneuvers to get the plane under control again.

Option 3 happening at 40,000 feet has a very much better chance of a positive outcome than at 4,000 feet

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