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Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

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Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#41

Post by crushcrashcrush »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #39
rangersanger wrote: post #18

Come to Salt Lake City. We even have absurd branding to lure you "silicon slopes!" There are a few SF organizations with satellite offices here. I've worked for one, have friends working for others. It's a pretty decent arrangement. You can get a team setup here for the cost of a single employee in the bay (especially when you factor in real estate.) Hell, maybe more. Shit, some of us will take pay cuts to avoid work…

Many, many people can't stand the influence LDS has on culture, alcohol, nightlife, sexuality, dating, etc. It's huge there.

Also, no one talks about it but the smog is absolutely out of control.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#42

Post by gotocake »

robertcorey wrote: post #38
rangersanger wrote: post #18

Come to Salt Lake City. We even have absurd branding to lure you "silicon slopes!" There are a few SF organizations with satellite offices here. I've worked for one, have friends working for others. It's a pretty decent arrangement. You can get a team setup here for the cost of a single employee in the bay (especially when you factor in real estate.) Hell, maybe more. Shit, some of us will take pay cuts to avoid work…

What about the LDS influence. I'd be worried about moving here to start a family.

Outside of a few issues there isn’t much influence, unless you’re in the church. One nice thing about Mormons is that at least outside of a missionary context abroad, they take “no” for an answer with grace. I wouldn’t want to join their club, but I like them as neighbors. Their cooking can be a little uninspiring, but the hospitality and friendliness is world class. SLC is also a gorgeous part of the world, if you like to hike or climb it’s one of the best. The city itself is also not exclusively Mormon, although it’s not NYC levels or diverse either. I’d recommend a visit to see if you like it.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#43

Post by keithnz »

organsnyder wrote: post #21
futureastronaut wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless these entry level engineers have families, there's no good reason to be paying $5-6k a month for rent, you can easily find a decent place of your own for under $4k, even $3k if you're patient.

As someone living in the Midwest, those numbers are mind-boggling.

as someone living in New Zealand, it is very mind-boggling numbers, we'd be 1000 -> 2000 range for housing.

and the USD salaries would put you in the very very top earners of the population. Though sourcing enough devs here would be tricky for anything beyond 10 people if you actually wanted to outsource to NZ.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#44

Post by bdamm »

nostrademons wrote: post #24
pageandrew wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, it's not 2-3x. Especially if we're talking salary. Salary for a top individual contributor engineer in the Bay Area (full stack), outside of specific skillsets like ML/AI, will top out around $200k. Midwest, someone with the same skillset would probably make $125-150k.

Total comp in Bay Area is often around $300-400K. That includes generous equity though, so may not be relevant when talking about startup salary affordability.

Often? Seems like $150-200k is closer to the norm.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#45

Post by dbattaglia »

organsnyder wrote: post #21
futureastronaut wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless these entry level engineers have families, there's no good reason to be paying $5-6k a month for rent, you can easily find a decent place of your own for under $4k, even $3k if you're patient.

As someone living in the Midwest, those numbers are mind-boggling.

I live in NYC, in a nice one bedroom apartment, and I find those numbers mind-boggling. Not that my rent is cheap by any means but its closer to $3000 than $6000.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#46

Post by compiler-guy »

gotocake wrote: post #42
robertcorey wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the LDS influence. I'd be worried about moving here to start a family.

Outside of a few issues there isn’t much influence, unless you’re in the church. One nice thing about Mormons is that at least outside of a missionary context abroad, they take “no” for an answer with grace. I wouldn’t want to join their club, but I like them as neighbors. Their cooking can be a little uninspiring, but the hospitality and friendliness is world class. SLC is also a gorgeous part of the world, if you l…

"The Liquor laws of Utah regulate the selling and purchasing of alcohol in the United States state of Utah and are some of the most restrictive in the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_Utah

Mormons account for nearly 90 percent of state Legislature https://www.apnews.com/286983987f484cb182fba9334c52a617

Utah is America's worst state for women's equality in 2018, study shows https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-is-americas-worst-state-for...

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#47

Post by g3rv4 »

PenguinCoder wrote: post #40
g3rv4 wrote: post #35

ugh, as a developer from a remote country that’s been working for 10+ years for US companies I run as fast as possible from companies like this one. If I provide the same value as US engineers, why should I make less than US engineers? Fortunately, I’ve been able to make my case. I hope these Indian engineers realize they’re making 1/15th what they should.

Can you elaborate on the methods you've used to "make my case" for getting paid fairly, as a remote (and Indian??) engineer?

I’m not Indian (I’m Uruguayan).

There were two times where I more than doubled my pay. At one point I was 1 month into a contract and I got an offer from a previous client doubling what I was getting. I used that to make my case and we figured a schedule for me to make 2x my rate.

Then, I was bored and started playing with Asterisk and Twilio. I built an integration before there were docs on how to do it, I blogged about it and people started contacting me offering me to do it for them.

For each client I asked for more money. I started at 35/h and doubled it every time somebody contacted me.

One of those clients offered me a 40 hours/week contract. They got acquired and I was a key member working 60+ hours per week.

The new company wanted me to sign a long term contract and... to sign it I asked for even more money! since I’d be giving up opportunities to work with other clients.

Once you start making more money it’s easier to get the job because... you’re already being paid that. Obviously, you need to deliver according to the expectations, but luckily that wasn’t an issue for me.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#48

Post by nostrademons »

bdamm wrote: post #44
nostrademons wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total comp in Bay Area is often around $300-400K. That includes generous equity though, so may not be relevant when talking about startup salary affordability.

Often? Seems like $150-200k is closer to the norm.

For FAANG I'm pretty sure it's in the $300-400K range. If you include all tech jobs (including startups and old-line jobs at eg. IBM, HP, Oracle, National Semiconductor, etc.) I could see it averaging out to $150-200K, but only because the previous-generation companies don't give equity and equity in many startups is worthless. The flip side of this is that if you pick the right startup (AirBnB, Lyft, Uber, Stripe, etc. when they were startups), your equity is worth millions.

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#49

Post by umvi »

crushcrashcrush wrote: post #39
rangersanger wrote: post #18

Come to Salt Lake City. We even have absurd branding to lure you "silicon slopes!" There are a few SF organizations with satellite offices here. I've worked for one, have friends working for others. It's a pretty decent arrangement. You can get a team setup here for the cost of a single employee in the bay (especially when you factor in real estate.) Hell, maybe more. Shit, some of us will take pay cuts to avoid work…

Many, many people can't stand the influence LDS has on culture, alcohol, nightlife, sexuality, dating, etc. It's huge there.

Apparently "LDS" is out, "Church of Jesus Christ" is the new name. They are even abandoning the LDS.org TLD

Re: Why we built our core engineering team outside of the SF Bay Area

#50

Post by zavi »

g3rv4 wrote: post #35

ugh, as a developer from a remote country that’s been working for 10+ years for US companies I run as fast as possible from companies like this one. If I provide the same value as US engineers, why should I make less than US engineers? Fortunately, I’ve been able to make my case. I hope these Indian engineers realize they’re making 1/15th what they should.

Salaries are determined by supply & demand, not by how engineers feel, what they "realize", or what they create in terms of value.
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