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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#41

I'm a regular college grad, but always liked working on my own car (and didn't always trust professional mechanics.) That lead me to consider becoming an auto mechanic at one time but after hearing some stories - and looking at the pay scales - I jumped back on my desk and rode off into the sunset. The stories - 1) Constant complaints by mgmt about productivity. 2) Grueling work schedules 3) Pressure to upsell additi…

The biggest downside of being a car mechanic is that your back and knees will be shot after a couple of years. Ease of service and mechanic's comfort are not usually high on the list of desirable features.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#42
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without h…

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case.

You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an education.

It is almost impossible to get certain jobs at all without a university education. For example, try getting into a major investment bank in any kind of well paid position without a good university education or serious work experience - it is just not going to happen.

This is not a comment about trade schools - it should be a completely valid and respected career path, I am just saying that one should try getting a university degree if at all possible and makes sense for your type of career.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#43

If students are coming out of 12 years of general education needing more general education, that is a failure of the public school system. We should fix that instead of pushing people into more school. After 12 years of general education, how do you justify more? In my opinion, we should be pushing specialized education at a younger age. When students exit high school, they should have skills that they can expand or…

> After 12 years of general education, how do you justify more?

A lot of the concepts you explore in university arts classes are things that a 12 year old just won't understand. Exploring subjects in a deep and meaningful way isn't possible until you've got your full adult toolkit of emotions and experience.

> In my opinion, we should be pushing specialized education at a younger age. When students exit high school, they should have skills that they can expand or fallback on. They can then use that fallback as a safety net to explore other options without extreme risk or debt.

How would you see that training going? I went to a rural school that had a graduating class of ~100, and there was little to no funding for extra courses - my choices of vocational training was comprised of "mechanics" or "woodworking".

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#44
post #3

I don't know why more tech companies don't do apprenticeships straight out of highschool. You can pay a high school student with some programming experience a fraction of the salary of a college graduate and it probably doesn't take that much longer to get them productive and they won't be saddled with student loan debt.

Poor return on investment given risks involved, you're better off offloading that cost of education/training to the individual and then just hiring them when they signal they are worthy of employment.

I have hired high school drop-outs and academics, both the best and the worst performers came in roughly equal proportions from both groups.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#45
Many roles we classify as trades are becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish from the roles we typically associate with college education. This is partially due to the fact that they are increasingly technical, partially due to the fact that trade schools are offering training and certification in fields that were once exclusively in the purview of colleges, and partially due to the fact that our jobs are becoming increasingly cross-pollinated (mechanics using augmented reality, electricians building custom electronics, plumbers using GIS mapping, etc.).

This makes defining the idea of a "trade" much more difficult. I think for the purposes of clarity, we should find some sort of line that distinguishes trade education from liberal education. I think the best way to do that - and this is obviously just my opinion - is to classify as a trade any work that doesn't directly question and debate theory or, put another way, any work that almost exclusively implements theory. So in this definition, you would obviously include the existing trades, but it would also include things we typically associate with college education like nursing, most software developer roles, therapists, architects, most engineers, etc.

I think the reason most of those roles are task-oriented (performing a function according to outlined requirements and expectations) but still trained at the college level is that they arose from more theory-oriented areas of study but never made the shift away from college when they entered mainstream, non-theoretical application. For instance, computer science was born from mathematics, but at this point, the average software developer doesn't need a PhD level of understanding in math to do their job at all. Nursing, similarly, was born from specialized forms of medicine, which was always a university-level field, but in recent years is shifting into 2-year programs and a more trade-like structure at the entry-level.

When you think about things this way, it suddenly makes the stigma against trade school seem silly. Most of us are doing trade work anyway. I write software, my friend wires buildings, my other friend does plumbing. We are all trade workers because we are ultimately just implementing theory, not discussing and questioning it.

This should also inform how we judge education. I have a couple college degrees, but I do not have what I would call a liberal education. I have not trained extensively in philosophy, law, theology, art, etc. My education is exclusively applied topics like finance and software. When I judge the quality of my own education experience, I am using different criteria than I would for someone that has training in English, history, or law. Their standard for "success" in the context of education is primarily defined by whether or not they take a role of social leadership and influence in their community (education, politics, writing, etc). Mine is different because I judge my success on whether or not I deliver a completed product in the context of my technology job.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#46
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Prove it. I have heard it said over and over again and get accepted at face value. Fact is companies need mostly low-level drones that do one thing well. They don't value much outside of that. Maybe for your personal gratification you might want an expansive view... but that's on you. Society, corporations, even the government cares little about these things. Maybe a more expansive education might make you have an open mind and that can be politically good so you are not supporting things like anti-vax or xenophobia... but there are studies that show that this is not the case: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ565304.pdf

In fact exposing people to too broad set of ideas may lead to nihilism and a constrained education may be better for mental health.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#47

I'm a regular college grad, but always liked working on my own car (and didn't always trust professional mechanics.) That lead me to consider becoming an auto mechanic at one time but after hearing some stories - and looking at the pay scales - I jumped back on my desk and rode off into the sunset. The stories - 1) Constant complaints by mgmt about productivity. 2) Grueling work schedules 3) Pressure to upsell additi…

This is anecdotal, but a drawback to working in some trades is that the employers tend to be family-owned, which makes it hard to advance if you don't belong to the family. Car repair shops fall into that category.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#48
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

That's assuming a college education gives you "an expansive view of human knowledge." I think that assumption should be questioned. I for one know there were a lot of pointless courses in college. I've learned more by being widely read than I ever learned through college courses.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#49

I'm a regular college grad, but always liked working on my own car (and didn't always trust professional mechanics.) That lead me to consider becoming an auto mechanic at one time but after hearing some stories - and looking at the pay scales - I jumped back on my desk and rode off into the sunset. The stories - 1) Constant complaints by mgmt about productivity. 2) Grueling work schedules 3) Pressure to upsell additi…

The biggest downside of being a car mechanic is that your back and knees will be shot after a couple of years. Ease of service and mechanic's comfort are not usually high on the list of desirable features.

Indeed, this is true of many skilled trades. When I have workers come to my house for various jobs, if they're my age, they're broken and hobbling.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True this. I don't want to teach a high school graduate (or college grad) what interfaces and abstract classes are.. or basic good design of code. My job depends on making progress, not training. That said, my org supports up to 4 concurrent interns (typically we have 2-3 at any given point), and they could work for 4 months to 2+ years if they want, 15-40 hours/week -- adjustable for summers, etc... But they need to…

I've always found it challenging to give programming projets to someone who is only here for a few hours and days a week. Where with clerical tasks you can just have them get back to that pile of paper tomrorrow

The trick is to give them either very small tasks, so they can do them in a sitting, or let them work on independent, but speculative tasks -- so time to completion isn't a big deal. Ex: many years ago, we had an intern working on a Google Glass interface, it didn't work out, because Google Glass, but it was a cool project for him, and it prepped us for thinking about secondary displays like smartwatches.
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