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A Vegan No More

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Re: A Vegan No More

#41

Post by chaitanya »

araneae wrote: post #31

That was kind of eye-opening. Not because it shows how bullshit veganism is; I knew that already. But because it reminds me of this friend I have, who is always complaining that she feels tired and weak. She goes to the doctor at least monthly, who diagnosis her with some new deficiency. She's always taking some new pill or food type. I always thought she was a hypochondriac. But it just occurred to me that she might…

> because she's a vegetarian.

There's a difference between a vegan and a vegetarian: a vegetarian doesn't consume meat, but does consume diary products and eggs (egg-but-not-meat eaters like me are sometimes also known as eggetarians).

A vegan, on the other hand, doesn't consume any animal products at all.

I have been vegetarian (or rather eggetarian) all my life, and I have had no such problems. Also, I know many vegetarians (lots of them here in India), who face none of these problems. I believe being a vegetarian is a fairly healthy lifestyle. Being a vegan, maybe not.

Re: A Vegan No More

#42

Post by strooltz »

michaelchisari wrote: post #26
numix wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder where these veracious vegans are. I've yet to meet a vegan who has been evangelical, yet have met many omnivores who speak poorly of vegans. Is this a region specific problem?

The punk/hardcore scene is filled with them. Earth Crisis, Vegan Reich, Hardline, vegan straight-edge, etc. Although, outside of that scene, I haven't often ran into them, so my guess is that most people are referring to the internet zealots, who tend to be an issue for any political, social, or cultural group, no matter how radical or mainstream.

None of those bands have been relavent in hardcore (other than on the fringe) in 20+ years. I've been involved in the punk/hardcore scene since the mid-nineties (and vegan since 2002) and while the scene is a little more veg friendly then most, a majority of the punk/hardcore kids i've grown up with and know are meat eaters.

as for the internet - it's full of opinionated zealots no matter what the cause.

Re: A Vegan No More

#43

Post by abeppu »

zaphar wrote: post #6
dejb wrote: post #4

> I never expected this post to get so much attention. There is nothing more popular than an anecdote that appeals to people's pre-existing biases. Unfortunately there will be many for which this one story will provide the same weight of evidence as the entire China Study.

The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. While this is just one example it does demonstrate the principle that meat is a necessary and vital part of some peoples healthy eating. I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Do they want prevent that as well. Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife.…

Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife. Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation.

Please let's not resort to "appeal to nature", because that can certainly be abused both ways (and frequently is). There are certainly all sorts of sketchy vegetarian and vegan bogus arguments about why not eating animals is natural (and certainly eating dairy and chicken eggs isn't natural).

We weren't built for anything, and just because something is natural, doesn't mean that it's good or right. If we ruled our lives by what was natural, we'd die in our thirties, have high infant mortality, and while we would eat meat, we would also chase after it with sharpened sticks, and more of us would die from starvation. Agriculture is unnatural; it's technology. Yes, our ancestors ate meat, but that alone doesn't mean that we need to. The OP's system couldn't handle her vegan diet, so she needs meat, but that doesn't mean everyone needs meat.

If you want to eat meat, eat meat. That's reason enough. If you find that you personally physically need to eat meat, then please eat meat. But neither the omnivore nor the vegan who claims that one diet is universally nutritionally or morally optimal in virtue of being natural is making a solid justification.

Re: A Vegan No More

#44

Post by michaelchisari »

strooltz wrote: post #42
michaelchisari wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The punk/hardcore scene is filled with them. Earth Crisis, Vegan Reich, Hardline, vegan straight-edge, etc. Although, outside of that scene, I haven't often ran into them, so my guess is that most people are referring to the internet zealots, who tend to be an issue for any political, social, or cultural group, no matter how radical or mainstream.

None of those bands have been relavent in hardcore (other than on the fringe) in 20+ years. I've been involved in the punk/hardcore scene since the mid-nineties (and vegan since 2002) and while the scene is a little more veg friendly then most, a majority of the punk/hardcore kids i've grown up with and know are meat eaters. as for the internet - it's full of opinionated zealots no matter what the cause.

None of those bands have been relavent in hardcore (other than on the fringe) in 20+ years.

The fringe is specifically what I'm referencing. I'm not saying punk in general is vegan, or hardline, etc. But the proportion of people within punk who are, compared to the general populace, is obviously much higher.

And I disagree that the scene is only a little more veg friendly than most, I'd say it's much more, except maybe scenes like conscious hip hop or hippy festivals.

Of course, I was specifically involved in very politicized punk scenes, so YMMV.

Re: A Vegan No More

#45

Post by mml »

lambda wrote: post #21
cjbprime wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. There are, you'll be pleased to hear, many vegans with stronger ethical arguments than "meat is murder". Such as, in summary: * unnecessary extreme suffering is unjustifiable. * some non-human animals (notably the ones we eat most of) are as capable of suffering at the physical level as humans are. We shouldn't discount their suffering just because they aren't members of homo…

It's difficult to find humanely raised meat? I just go to the farmer's market and buy it straight from the farmer who raises grass-fed free range cows. If I would like to verify, I can head to her farm and see how she raises the cows myself. Or I buy fish that are caught in sustainable ways, which have grown in their natural habitat and not subjected to any suffering beyond the catch (which is a necessary part of con…

The "tastier" organic myth is a myth in at least some cases. Double blind taste tests of 2 halves of the same product reveal that the half presented as "organic" is often chosen as being "tastier", despite being identical to it's other "non organic" half.

IMHO, he organic food "movement" is marketing targeted at the guilty conscience of the well-heeled consumer of organic foods.

Re: A Vegan No More

#46

Post by frossie »

michaelchisari wrote: post #19
dasil003 wrote: post #13

I'm all for radicalism since radicals are the main force questioning conventional wisdom. But the size of the vegan movement is totally out of proportion to its veracity. Take the whole "meat is murder" slogan. It's ridiculous from the outset and completely ignores our existence within the earth's ecosystem. I mean industrialized animal farming is fairly horrific, but the way to stop that is by advocating and paying…

I'm not vegan, but I do advocate a more reasonable approach to meat. By eating less meat, you can afford to eat better quality meat. I've heard a few good suggestions that balance ethics, pragmatism, and nutrition, either following the rule "vegan before 6", so you save up meat and dairy products only for dinner, or "meat x3", where you eat high quality meat only three meals a week, with the rest vegetarian, which I'…

Thank you for making that point. False dichotomies annoy the heck out of me.

I encourage people who are not to try and eat vegetarian (never mind vegan - and BTW I am neither) for one week as an intellectual exercise. The issue is not whether one eats meat, but how totally unthinking our meat consumption has become - bacon for breakfast, ham sandwich for lunch, burger for dinner.

The question isn't whether to be vegan or omnivore, but whether it is necessary to eat meat at every meal, as is now common in many Western countries. A lot of the ecological, social and humanitarian concerns of meat production can be significantly improved by just reducing red meat consumption.

A lot of our food choices are habitual choices that can be changed with minor effort. Have hummus instead of ham in that sandwich. Have shrimp instead of beef in your Thai curry. Don't eat a mammal every meal out of reflex - eat it mindfully, and pay a fair price for humanely reared meat. The planet (and probably your body) will thank you for it.

Re: A Vegan No More

#47

Post by muriithi »

jacquesm wrote: post #10

It's interesting how strong peer pressure is in groups like vegans to continue to press someone in to a lifestyle that clearly is not to their best interest. It reminds me of religious cults, and other 'us or them' styled groups. Very scary.

She even says that she and her family has received threats!

What would make someone do that simply because the lady has started eating meat?

Re: A Vegan No More

#48

Post by crazydiamond »

Perhaps those who eat meat should slowly introduce vegetarianism into their diet (if they wish to) rather than going vegan straight.

I turned veg about 15 years back (but still ate an egg). My haemoglobin count actually went up by a point (a year later). About 5 years ago, i gave up eggs too. A year later my Haemo was up by another half point.

I do have a small amount of milk in tea/coffee. In India, there are millions of vegetarians who live without health problems. Veganism seems a little extreme to us.

Re: A Vegan No More

#49

Post by davorak »

robryan wrote: post #29

Hmm, in the same way that this girl strongly was able to have a strong moral stance for being a vegan before she has also been able to justify a strong moral stance against it, pointing to large scale farming now as the enemy. I'm all for the overall feeling but it does show that people can very easy justify contradictory stances at different times.

It did seem like that the author should examine her decision making/philosophy adopting process along with her dedication to veganism.

Re: A Vegan No More

#50

Post by burgerbrain »

autarch wrote: post #40
burgerbrain wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn’t mean I think she has made any of this up. She has an awfully weird way of expressing this. The first few paragraphs of her post are dedicated to implying as hard as she can that this blog post is some sort of meat industry propaganda. For example: > There is so much that is eerily parallel in these stories—not just the vague descriptions of the health-related experiences but also the evolving philosoph…

I think Ginny's saying that the the author of the blog post is simply echoing things she read elsewhere. That doesn't mean it's some sort of propaganda effort on the part of the blog poster.

I think that's definitely how she's trying to spin it "officially", but her actual intent is pretty clear.

>I have to admit I’m always a little suspicious when an ex-vegan dives headlong into a love affair with meat.

I mean come on, what else is that supposed to mean? Is she "suspicious" that the author is simply echoing a new-found respect for meat? That doesn't even make sense.

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