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Do Jails Kill People?

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Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#41

Post by ZeroFries »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #28
ZeroFries wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing anyone that listening to stories will drastically alter a person's neurology to the point of making them go from hyper-aggressive to docile. Until we improve our cognitive reforming abilities, violent criminals need to be segregated from the rest of the population. I do agree, though, that the vindictive aspect of "justice" is primative.

I think we can move towards less punitive measures. In Europe there are far fewer jail sentences, I agree about violent offenders. The fact is most people are in jail for non-violent offenses. Even in the case of violent crime, the necessity of imprisoning them for as long as the US does, is questionable. Again in Europe jail sentences tend to be much shorter.

Non-violent offenders still mess people's lives up and will likely continue to do so given opportunity. Imagine losing your retirement savings due to being conned. The so-called victimless crimes (eg: drug use), are the ones which could use the most overhaul.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#42

Post by ZeroFries »

tdb7893 wrote: post #40
ZeroFries wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing anyone that listening to stories will drastically alter a person's neurology to the point of making them go from hyper-aggressive to docile. Until we improve our cognitive reforming abilities, violent criminals need to be segregated from the rest of the population. I do agree, though, that the vindictive aspect of "justice" is primative.

The issue is that most people in prison aren't "hyper aggressive". We incarcerate way more people than other places so your argument seems predicated on there being a lot more "hyper aggressive" people in the US than other places and I can't think of why that's the case.

I never said victimless crimes need prison time. My argument is that hyper-aggressive people, and those that cause harm to others, need to be separated from the rest of society. The percentage of people that this applies to is greater than 0. The post I was commenting on said putting people in jail is a crime, when that's the best of bad solutions we currently have in a lot of cases.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#43

Post by quasse »

zkms wrote: post #7

A major unaddressed issue is laws like PLRA (passed in 1996) that utterly wiped out federal court oversight of local/state prisons/jails. In addition, PLRA made it borderline-impossible for incarcerated people (whether convicted or not) to bring legit, non-frivolous lawsuits relating to unconstitutional conditions of confinement. Pre-PLRA, there was some hard-won federal court oversight (consent decrees and the like)…

I've found it hard to find out who was responsible for PLRA, but what I do know is that it seemed to enjoy wide congressional support, received little scrutiny, was signed into law by Bill Clinton, and Joe Biden was one of the only senators who raised concerns about it preventing meritorious lawsuits. [1]

[1] https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-100-issue-2/please-pa...

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#44

Post by heydonovan »

xfitm3 wrote: post #25
blfr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rikers Island is operated by the New York City Department of Correction, not a private company, and 85% of Rikers' residents have not been convicted (at least not yet) so how are your suggestions supposed to help with any of the issues outlined in the OP? If anything, moving away from plea bargaining would mean more people in jails awaiting trial. More generally, what is the value or repeating things like argument-le…

"Guilty pleas have replaced trials for a very simple reason: individuals who choose to exercise their Sixth Amendment right to trial face exponentially higher sentences if they invoke the right to trial and lose. Faced with this choice, individuals almost uniformly surrender the right to trial rather than insist on proof beyond a reasonable doubt, defense lawyers spend most of their time negotiating guilty pleas rath…

Plea bargaining makes innocent people admit to things they didn't do. Given the choice to plead guilty and receive 30 days in jail vs taking a chance in court at the risk of 3 years in jail, which would you take? Not to mention the insane costs of hiring a lawyer, which only wealthy people can afford. With the current trend of "guilty until proven innocent", it's no wonder folks take this approach.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#45

Post by kakarot »

My experience with jail:

I was having severe heart palpitations in jail and the guards would not give me my medicine. When I got irate they would threaten to throw me in the hole without food and water for a few days.

I also have a spine disorder that brings me extreme discomfort and the cots were the same units they'd ordered in the sixties. No stuffing at all, and I would wake up slightly paralyzed waist up for a few hours, with intense shoulder pain and barely being able to walk from sciatic flare-ups.

I coincidentally was suffering from multiple dental infections accelerated from black mold in my apartment, sometimes running fever, again with no medicine because I "didn't feel out the medicine form". They never gave me one and wouldn't give me one. They wouldn't cover an emergency dental operation either because "I wasn't going to be in there long enough". I really thought I was going to die or at least become critically ill and in need of hospitalization while in there. Only two or so weeks after I got out, I ended up developing an infection that paralyzed me almost completely until I was able to secure antibiotics.

Best part was, the entire conviction and incarceration was illegal but the prosecutor changed my public defender and the new one refused to help me or let me appeal my case. I was also handed the maximum allowed sentence for the conviction, despite absolutely no evidence and several conflicting testimonies.

The American justice system really is something.

Edit: forgot to mention a juicy part: The jail lied to me and told me the only way that I could bail out the night I was arrested was if I signed a particular form which I later found out waived my right to a fair and speedy trial by jury. I was tricked into taking away authority over my case from the people and bestowing it entirely to a judge with corrupt motives.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#46

Post by heydonovan »

hopler wrote: post #34
blfr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rikers Island is operated by the New York City Department of Correction, not a private company, and 85% of Rikers' residents have not been convicted (at least not yet) so how are your suggestions supposed to help with any of the issues outlined in the OP? If anything, moving away from plea bargaining would mean more people in jails awaiting trial. More generally, what is the value or repeating things like argument-le…

Why do people awaiting trial for petty crimes need to go to jail? Rich people don't have to go to jail. Give them an ankle monitor and a court date.

You also can't bail yourself out. If taken in, you can't just hand them a credit card, and be done. You have to have someone else pay for your bail, assuming you can convince someone to do so. Forgot every phone number because it's 2019 and we all have our contacts in an app? Too bad. You're not allowed to use your iPhone either. It's a very well thought out system to keep you in jail as long as possible. Unless of course, you're rich.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#47

Post by Casseres »

hopler wrote: post #35
SomeHacker44 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone commits around three federal felonies a day, according to the premise of the book "Theee Felonies a Day" that I read a long time ago. We are all criminals and all do something "wrong" legally, all the time. The only difference is that the justice system focuses on some of us and not others, and the plea system harms most of those who are focused on, because any scrutiny at all can virtually always lead to an…

That book was a huge exaggeration. It's central thesis was that most things that that are felonies are larger scale versions of minor acts (like battery is unwabtedt touching, so supposedly you could be convicted for bumping someone on a subway, and since the law accounts for mens rea, anyone could be party to a crime if the crime occurred and the judge/jury believe it was intentional. What's the alternative, to make…

I just looked at the reviews on Amazon. One reader wrote, "If you're looking for everyday examples of the felonies you and I unwittingly commit each day, you won't find them here."

I guess I won't be buying it.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#48

Post by Ericson2314 »

quasse wrote: post #43
zkms wrote: post #7

A major unaddressed issue is laws like PLRA (passed in 1996) that utterly wiped out federal court oversight of local/state prisons/jails. In addition, PLRA made it borderline-impossible for incarcerated people (whether convicted or not) to bring legit, non-frivolous lawsuits relating to unconstitutional conditions of confinement. Pre-PLRA, there was some hard-won federal court oversight (consent decrees and the like)…

I've found it hard to find out who was responsible for PLRA, but what I do know is that it seemed to enjoy wide congressional support, received little scrutiny, was signed into law by Bill Clinton, and Joe Biden was one of the only senators who raised concerns about it preventing meritorious lawsuits. [1] [1] https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-100-issue-2/please-pa...

It's definitely reaks of 90s Clinton triangulation.

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#49

Post by gnome_chomsky »

kakarot wrote: post #45

My experience with jail: I was having severe heart palpitations in jail and the guards would not give me my medicine. When I got irate they would threaten to throw me in the hole without food and water for a few days. I also have a spine disorder that brings me extreme discomfort and the cots were the same units they'd ordered in the sixties. No stuffing at all, and I would wake up slightly paralyzed waist up for a f…

I'm sorry that you experienced such an inhumane ordeal. Were you incarcerated at a publicly or privately operated facility?

Re: Do Jails Kill People?

#50

Post by dragonwriter »

zkms wrote: post #7

A major unaddressed issue is laws like PLRA (passed in 1996) that utterly wiped out federal court oversight of local/state prisons/jails. In addition, PLRA made it borderline-impossible for incarcerated people (whether convicted or not) to bring legit, non-frivolous lawsuits relating to unconstitutional conditions of confinement. Pre-PLRA, there was some hard-won federal court oversight (consent decrees and the like)…

> A major unaddressed issue is laws like PLRA (passed in 1996) that utterly wiped out federal court oversight of local/state prisons/jails.

Well, it greatly reduced it. It didn't utterly wipe it out, as California’s post-96 experience rather dramatically demonstrates.

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