Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#41

Post by kerbalspacepro » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen

Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#42

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

GauntletWizard wrote: post #39

wenc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your linked definition, it is a word "coined by Thomas More (and used as title of his book, 1516, about an imaginary island enjoying the utmost perfection in legal, social, and political systems" Taken metaphorically, a utopia is a idealized state of affairs where perfection (optimality) is reached. This state of affairs is imaginary however, because the world in which such a perfection is attained is also imagi…

There was a discussion of the SR-71 a few months ago that I found excellent. One of the comments took the opposition approach - The SR-71 was an engineering failure, because it leaked fuel, it required tight tolerances and most of the parts were thrown out because of it, etc [1]. I think it's a correct view. I think they're absolutely right about the SR-71. I posted a comment arguing they're wrong, because I think my…

What does correct mean? Engineering is about solving problems.

Ultimately it was the right solution for a very specific scope and time. The knowledge gained helped avoid nuclear conflict — an extreme benefit worth a lot of cost.

Once satellites matured, it’s utility was reduced. Once drones were a thing, it’s utility went to zero. Top-secret state of the art stuff in 1990 is on the deck of a mueseum today.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#43

Post by petermcneeley » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:40 PM UTC

0x262d wrote: post #37

Buldak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's hard not to think that the subtext here is a kind of quietism in service to the status quo.

the only purpose of this article is to shut off the possibility of an alternative to the status quo.

Hehe who knows. I was just sitting at 5 point comment and in like 30 seconds im at -1.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#44

Post by _bxg1 » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:41 PM UTC

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

I mean, I would just translate to the secular equivalent, "perfection is not a real thing". More concerning is the "image of the Creator" language, which is a short step from exactly the kind of hyper-idealism that he's critiquing in the first place. He does at least acknowledge that trying to achieve perfection in the real (or "the present") world is folly, but still, it's from a very different perspective than the secular one.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#45

Post by henry_bone » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

You can use your own mind. Assess the actual point of view, rather than engaging your bias the minute you detect a whiff of religion.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#46

Post by philwelch » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41

_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

I’m not religious myself, but I think you’re letting some weird biases get in the way here. The point is that the world and the work of human beings is flawed, fallible, and imperfect. Whether or not heaven exists in heaven, it certainly doesn’t exist on earth and essentially never can.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#47

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #12

Zenst wrote: post #4

Politics is a see-saw of right and left policey, swings one way, then over time the objection to that swing grows and you end up swinging the other way. But then, you can see this historically with the two party system, even though you have more than a choice of two. Those two are the majority and the way politics works, it's the majority (however small). So yes, a push to one direction or another will increase and r…

Politics in America are a see-saw of right/left swings... and the see-saw swings back and forth every eight years almost like clockwork, this is because of the American political system though, it's not due to the nature of humanity. America needs to take a serious swing at removing money from politics and giving more voice to third party dissenting opinions, it'll help stabilize the country over the long run and all…

Totally agree about third party representation. It's still hard to believe that Ross Perot (like him or not) got around 20% of the vote in the 90s and 0% representation came out of this. Congress would do well if there were some swing voters who aren't beholden to the two big parties. This way the big parties would have to collaborate more because they couldn't just go straight party line.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#48

Post by roenxi » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

reb wrote: post #23

jd007 wrote: post #5

More generally speaking, when you optimize on a particular set of metrics to the extreme (when it comes to social issues this is what utopias try to do), you will inevitably cause another set of metrics to be correspondingly de-optimized to the extreme (which can be qualified as dystopian). There is no way to optimize everything simultaneously because many things are fundamentally inversely correlated with each other…

I agree. It's also worth noting the lifecycle of most optimizations, including the non-partisan variety: 1. Early on many benefit and costs are minimized per capita. 2. As the benefits diffuse across the population, smart/wily/greedy individuals push the optimization to squeeze more value for themselves. 3. Benefits begin to centralize among the smart/wily/greedy. Awareness of costs starts to grow. The general popula…

Using 'optimization' here makes it an odd construction where I don't think I've quite understood what you are trying to say.

Is it synonymous with social change? Most social changes aren't optimisations, they are complicated changes to how resources are distributed; leading to unpredictable outcomes.

Take social welfare. This can probably be considered a social optimisation and most reasonable people would agree that some level of welfare is appropriate. But there doesn't seem to be any particular agreement on the economic or social front about whether the optimum amount is more or less. Or what we are optimising for.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#49

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #28

shoguning wrote: post #21

I've heard the assertion that utopianism is bad, but what about it is bad? Certainly, we should be able to strive for improvement, in ourselves and society? The problem with utopianism is the desire to create a new society out of whole cloth, with no regard for the lessons of the past, or the structure of existing society. Drastic changes, like those of the communist revolutions, rarely bring about positive change (n…

That's the distinction between utopianism and, I guess, gradualism or conservatism. It's not about whether or not we should improve society, it's about whether we should completely overturn everything in society based on abstract theory. A non-utopian way of improving society is to have robust, good-faith discussion between progressive and conservative factions, where the progressives keep trying to find safe, margin…

"At least in the United States, where I live, this doesn't happen because the "progressives" are radicalizing towards utopianism while the "conservative" faction is themselves split between utopianism and reaction."

Sometimes It feels like the "conservatives" are more utopian than the progressives. They just live in the utopia of a past that never existed.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#50

Post by btilly » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

The article is right, but fails to explain why. Here is an abbreviated version of the argument within Enlightenment Now for the same basic point.

We are prone to believe that the ends justify the means. When the ends are infinite good, we therefore become willing to inflict unlimited harm to achieve them. In practice the infinite good people aimed for has proven to be debatable, but the harms inflicted have not.

The more right you feel your cause is, the more that this should worry you.