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Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

triplebyte.com

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Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#41
post #14

>how clean their code is, I got bit in the ass by this one as triplebyte itself. They asked me to make a tic tac toe game, and gave me iirc 30 minutes (less?) to do it. Except, it wasn't "build a tic tac to" game, first it was "draw a board to the console," "take user input from the console," etc a bunch of instructions in a convoluted path that perhaps another engineer would do when knowing from the outset that the…

I took shortcuts in my triplebyte coding porting of the interview, assuming we would iterate and expand on the solution. Instead we just moved on to algorithms and I got heavily dinged on my feedback for the shortcuts I took (things like hard-coded strings in some places to get the UI working before wiring up to real data models).

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#42
This article makes a lot of good points. After going through the "implement a red-black tree on this whiteboard" experience as a more junior dev, I always promised myself I would never use this kind of stupid questions to hire.

Now, 13 years later, I mostly rely on "homework" type exercises. I think they address most of the issues. They are more "real world", no time pressure, etc. However, even those now are being heavily criticized. What's left to be used?

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#43
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rejecting far more candidates than you need to What do you mean by "than you need to"? I'm guessing for many companies (especially the ones with this kinds of interviews), the limit is the number of hires they can do, not the number of candidates that apply... So by definition, you need to reject all but n (the number of open jobs)... Why wouldn't you reject them based on performance on interviews (as opposed to, b…

This might be true at Amazon, Google, or Netflix. But many companies have openings that sit vacant for months, even though perfectly great candidates applied for the job.

Months? Years :). Know couple of teams in my current place (very well known company) that couldn’t hire for a year... and lost position, as business argued - if you can’t hire for a whole year you don’t really need t

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#44

The less talked about absurdity is that successfully passing programming interviews is a skill itself. It's especially absurd because the time I spend developing that skill is less time spent developing skills and knowledge more directly relevant to my job. Yet, programming interview skill is more relevant to progressing my career. edit: now if you'll excuse me, I need to do some dynamic programming problems.

This is kind off strange for a non US resident to grasp. I've been employed as a programmer three times and noone tested my coding abilites what so ever on the interviews. No samples, nothing. Never heard of any collegue doing that either.

>This is kind off strange for a non US resident to grasp.

I've worked for two non-technical companies as a software developer and one highly technical company, and interviewed at a few Silicon Valley companies.

The difference between the interview processes is staggering; my current job's interview was two hours of conversation, no code tests, just a general assessment of "do you know what you're doing" by the hiring manager and a couple other members of the team. The highly technical company had a code assessment then the in-person interviews had zero coding.

The SV companies must have a good reason for this, but golly the amount of coding in those interviews is nuts. I'm a process over code speed kind of coder, and I've failed every SV-level test because of it; my code comes from talking to non-technical users like medical researchers and study operations managers and tossing something together in Python or a cloud service that makes their lives easier. Needless to say, I don't go over algorithm fundamentals on a regular basis, and I generally fall out after the first or second interview.

It's especially odd that interviews are so intensely focused on those couple hours since I personally don't see any dev or any resource for that matter contributing in any meaningful way in so fast a time, or even within 90 days. I'm not sure how this problem could be solved with the limited time companies can dedicate to interviews, though; maybe rely more on portfolios?

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#46
post #14

>how clean their code is, I got bit in the ass by this one as triplebyte itself. They asked me to make a tic tac toe game, and gave me iirc 30 minutes (less?) to do it. Except, it wasn't "build a tic tac to" game, first it was "draw a board to the console," "take user input from the console," etc a bunch of instructions in a convoluted path that perhaps another engineer would do when knowing from the outset that the…

Same experience with the Tic Tac Toe, then again with the rest of the interview.

There were a lot of Googlable boilerplate questions (e.g. "what does malloc return?", "what's a bloom filter?") that, as a product engineer, never come up.

Then there were the classic Big-O notation queries that for most use cases don't come up until much later stage. It felt like the founders were classically trained in CS and over-optimizing for things that aren't practically relevant for the large majority of early/mid-stage startups.

Am I familiar with these concepts—e.g. can I go back and refresh myself when they come up?—absolutely. But often times the skills you'd want in an engineer are:

1. Knowing when to optimize

2. Knowing how to profile and identify bottlenecks

3. Familiarity with the available solutions

4. Ability to dig in and evaluate which is the right tool for the jon

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#47
post #31

Another solution to this problem is contract to hire. I realize this is kicking the can down the road to the contracting firm but hear me out: that's the business the contracting firm is in. They can get really good at their hiring practice since that's their core business. That's not our core business. We've been doing this for the past two years and it's worked out great. Now you can see how well people do the actu…

How does this help? You still have to find people to contract and so you still have to screen the contractors. Every one that fails you was a huge waste of your time. You've got to spend time telling them what you want them to do, explaining to them your systems, your APIs, training them to your way of doing things or whatever and if they fail than all your time is in the toilet.

The only advantage I can see is you can get rid of them easily by not renewing their contract but that in itself is not a solution to finding good people in the first place. Plus it's likely to be hugely limiting. I'm not going to give up my current job and move to your city for a contract you might cancel in 3 months.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#48
I've seen this borne out in practice after administering dozens of phone screens and in-person interviews over the years. I started off with questions that were a little too hard and couldn't get a good read of the candidate unless they happened to have already done the problem on some interview prep site.

Switching to more practical, simpler problems allowed me to really observe how they work and solve a coding problem. As the article said, I was also able to add requirements or features to the problem which let me see how the candidate adapts to changing requirements, or refactors their own solution to handle a new edge case. Simpler is generally better if you are timeboxed to 45 minutes.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#49
I wonder if hard questions, especially hard algorithm questions, has high false positive rate as well. Being good at solving those questions simply requires you to do tons of practice on leetcode, and those who are willing to spend tons of time are probably those who find it difficult to get jobs (or new grads). I don't think the skills for solving hard algorithm questions correlate well with the actual performance at work. Especially if someone is a new grad, they could be good at thise questions but don't have a clue about how real software systems are built.

Re: Harder programming questions do a worse job of predicting outcomes

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that they introduce market friction to reduce developer turnover and reduce salaries. I suspect one of the reasons Google is so open about their process and the need to study is so that everyone follows suit. Thereby forcing people to take days off and do homework for even the most mediocre of positions, causing the switching costs of interviewing anywhere to become higher.

Interesting idea. I got an email from Facebook with invitations for the interview. Replied: “I can do it but i’m Letting you know, I will not spend a minute preparing for it. So, we can do it today”. I never heard from this person again, which brings a question - is probability of passing it without putting personal time is so low it makes no point in even trying?

More likely the phrasing of your response provided signals that they shouldn't proceed.
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