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Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

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Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#41

Post by flexie »

lettergram wrote: post #6

Harvard doesn’t have an admissions problem. It’s a highly successful institution, that has lasted for hundreds of years and is not public. Meaning - they clearly are doing something correct and are not beholden to what we feel is “fair”. They aren’t doing anything illegal, so there is no problem. Perhaps it doesn’t jive with some sensibilities, but it’s not their responsibility to cater to anyone’s sensibilities. The…

In its hundred of years history, its admission system has been discriminating against minorities, going far beyond what only those with "sensibilities" would care about.

Recently it has been well documented how Asians have a tougher admission than white Americans. Until the 1930s, and possibly longer, they had a Jewish quota. While Jim Crow laws were being dismantled, there was 1 (one) black student in the 1958-class. Then there was the gender quotas.

Harvard - as other private universities - are benefiting from favorable tax treatment, and from society acknowledging their education for a number of different professions (law and medicine are obvious examples). But even without that, society has a legitimate interest in regulating against discrimination in private universities.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#42

Post by agent008t »

dannykwells wrote: post #4

This presupposes that colleges truly want their admission process to be fair, which they absolutely don't. Then, how would they get to admit legacy students with wealthy parents? Also, admitting that getting admitted is based on luck directly contradicts the narrative of meritocracy in college admissions, which would decrease the perceived prestige of the school. So yeah, no way would Harvard go for this.

Don't know about Harvard, but I was involved with interviewing candidates for CS admissions at Oxford. Everyone involved that I worked with most definitely wanted to admit the best, most capable students and could not care less about legacy students or wealth.

The institutions in "the West" are really not as bad as some of us would like to think. Furthermore, undermining the public faith in these institutions can serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy - for example, making some brilliant applicants not even try to apply to a good University, believing it is biased against them.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#44

Post by crazygringo »

So here's the thing: a student body is more than the sum of its parts, which a lottery ignores.

To use just one example: a lottery could easily wind up admitting 40 violin players and zero bassoon players, or 8 percussionists but not a single oboe player. In which case a viable university orchestra becomes impossible, and every potential orchestra player suffers. (These are not exaggerated either -- for an incoming class of 1,000 students, of which only ~100 have a sufficient orchestra background with the requisite years of practice and want to play, there isn't a lot of margin for error.)

Now repeat ad nauseum for every type of sports team, extracurricular, distribution across majors, etc.

By ensuring there are approximately the right number of every "slots" for each type of applicant, the institution ensures that students have the ability to participate in the types of activities and courses they want to, and that student life is rich both academically and extracurricularly.

There are legitimate problems with some of the "slotting" as practiced today (particularly concerning legacies and in terms of whether a racial/ethnic/national balance should match the nation, the applicant pool, some other balance, or be ignored entirely), but a lottery would throw out the baby with the bathwater, and be a disaster for ensuring the kind of vibrant student life that is a major part of 4-year university experience.

(Obviously this is specific to smaller institutions, whether elite or not -- if your incoming class is 30,000 students then you'll always have enough of everyone.)

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#45

Post by honestinquiry »

rconti wrote: post #35
criddell wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren’t doing anything illegal Isn't there an active lawsuit claiming their use of race in the admissions process crosses the line?

Yes, a conservative activist has recruited test-case students as plaintiffs in lawsuits designed to strike down affirmative action.

If the merits of the case are justified, what does it matter whether an "activist" is involved or what his politics might be?

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#46

Post by trowawee »

karmajunkie wrote: post #13
taylodl wrote: post #7

"The admissions lottery I envision—which would involve applicants who meet a certain academic threshold—would help universities faced with large numbers of qualified applicants, such as Harvard, admit students in a more equitable way." The whole point to the modern university application process is they want more axis than academic achievement with which to evaluate prospective students. Did you play and do well in s…

All of those criteria are quantifiable and can be part of a threshold calculation.

Not really. Is it more impressive to climb the seven summits, or write an original work and have it performed by the New York Philharmonic? These aren't cleanly comparable things (which was always the point, of course; the focus on "more well-rounded students" appeared when elite institutions were worried that academically successful Jewish students were becoming too big a proportion of the student body.[1])

1: http://250.browndailyherald.com/how-1920s-anti-semitism-insp...

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#47

Post by dontreact »

taylodl wrote: post #7

"The admissions lottery I envision—which would involve applicants who meet a certain academic threshold—would help universities faced with large numbers of qualified applicants, such as Harvard, admit students in a more equitable way." The whole point to the modern university application process is they want more axis than academic achievement with which to evaluate prospective students. Did you play and do well in s…

Why do you think that diversity of race and class are not true diversity?

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#48

Post by cm2187 »

taylodl wrote: post #7

"The admissions lottery I envision—which would involve applicants who meet a certain academic threshold—would help universities faced with large numbers of qualified applicants, such as Harvard, admit students in a more equitable way." The whole point to the modern university application process is they want more axis than academic achievement with which to evaluate prospective students. Did you play and do well in s…

It's the adage that a metric ceases to be a good measure when it becomes an objective. Students doing x will increase their chance to get admitted at Harvard, parents will force kids to do x to get in, and x ceases to be a measure of extra curricular diversification and being just one more subject in the curriculum.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#49

Post by watwut »

uasm wrote: post #14

The true solution though, would be for people to wake up and realize that in most cases, those so-called "ivy-league" colleges set you up for nothing you couldn't have gotten elsewhere. That you're NOT in-fact better off at 22 with a 150,000$ debt, which you could've avoided by attending a different institute. That the quality of education in "less prestigeous" universities doesn't necessarily "fall" from that of Har…

> nothing you couldn't have gotten elsewhere

Well, for example prestigious clerk positions are filled from Yale Law and Harward students. If you study law elsewhere, the most ambitious positions are effectively closed. Look at supreme court and see which school are represented.

Ivy league causes people trust you more. There are prestigious places that stock from almost exclusively from those schools.

So yeah, it attracts all those highly ambitious kids for a reason.

Re: Solution to Harvard’s admissions problem is simple: run a lottery

#50

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

briandear wrote: post #20
abnry wrote: post #12

The problem of college admissions seems similar to the problem of selling tickets to a hot event. The free market solution to selling tickets to, say, a Red Sox game is to charge as much as you possible can until people stop buying tickets. But you get a problem. You make the less wealthy fans very unhappy because they have no choice in being able to attend. This has long term consequences. So the Red Sox, for instan…

So basically supply and demand?

The best approach would be to stamp the name and date of birth on the tickets. Check ID and DOB at the door.

No ticket scalpers.

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