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Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

computing.co.uk

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Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#41

Post by detaro »

krona wrote: post #20
kodablah wrote: post #4

At the end of the day, Google probably doesn't differentiate the two very much as they're both costs of doing business. I would expect Google to work in its interest to reduce these impositions (taxes, laws+fines, etc) where they can, but we shouldn't pretend the punitive value of fines is more than a cost calculation to them. We also shouldn't pretend that the EU justification for fines is purely about citizen prote…

[The EU] see this as a "tax" as well Fines imposed by the EU go straight to the EU commission itself. Tax doesn't.

EU fines go into the EU budget, and the member countries accordingly pay less than planned into it so that the overall pot stays the same, meaning the member countries have more money.

Taxes mean the member countries the taxes are paid in have more money.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#42

Post by shaki-dora »

writepub wrote: post #33

Completely disingenuous representation. ALL of EU has Value Added Taxation, that takes money from every transaction to/from corps. For instance, buying ads on Google would automatically incur these taxes. What EU really wants is double/triple taxation where: 1. They tax your transactions as VAT 2. Income post these taxes are counted as revenues, and costs (excluding VAT) are deducted to calculate profits. 3. Profits…

First of all, VAT is collected by the vendor. But the entity actually taxed is the customer. That's why VAT is an explicit line item on any bill.

Second, almost all customers of Google Ads are businesses, with the resultant right get refunds for any VAT paid.

Third, because of [second], most customers likely take a shortcut: if you add your VAT registration number to your account, Google does not even charge VAT.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#43

Post by jdoliner »

stormbrew wrote: post #38
jdoliner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, I would love to see a monopoly based tax system. I consider property ownership just a special case of a monopoly, since you have a monopoly on that plot of land. The one question you didn't broach here though is how you set the tax rate. Current systems do this on property by looking at the sale price, but property value can change, so they use an appraisal process. That's no good, it's expensive…

So you get your buddy to make you a low-ball offer on your property that you'll definitely refuse so you can pay less taxes. Then you do the same for them. Meanwhile, that person you don't like? Make a ridiculous offer on their property to either force them to move or suddenly have to pay absurd taxes.

You'd value the property based on the max offer the person had gotten, not the minimum.

This gives the person you don't like the option to take your ridiculous offer and stick you with the absurd taxes. Sure they have to move, but they now have the resources to do it.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#44

Post by shaki-dora »

autokad wrote: post #7

the EU uses fines as a way of levying tariffs without explicitly being called out for it.

I'm glad this jingoistic talking point is appearing less and less these days. Because I got tired of repeating the following:

If you actually sum up the fines levied by the EU, aggregated by continent, you will find they almost perfectly each region's respective revenue in the EU.

The only exception is that Asia is fined somewhat more than to be expected, and the US less.

This is probably due to the US' strong enforcement catching and/or discouraging behaviour before it gets to the level where the EU would intervene. Conversely, it shows a somewhat less developed corporate culture in some Asian countries.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#45

Post by robin_reala »

microcolonel wrote: post #34
snidane wrote: post #27

It clearly shows how the tax system based on taking a cut from profits is totally leaky and should be abandoned. It only results in endless cat and mouse game of tax consultants (the big 4) finding loopholes in such tax systems against governments trying to plug the holes, just with much smaller budget and efficiency than the tax-evasion consulting armies. There are other models of tax systems. Some are even not prod…

In my humble opinion, this has more to do with the tremendous, ever-growing cost of the EU and its member governments; as well as a lack of protective principles in their legal systems. These rulings seem to show them retroactively interpreting and applying laws which would be too vague to enforce in the U.S. The EU's courts seem so abusive and vague that there is virtually no way to avoid running afoul of them if yo…

I mean, your second sentence is not even remotely true. You’re implying that the chance of being sued by the EU is near 100% for every profitable business in the EU.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#46

Post by icebraining »

jdoliner wrote: post #35
snidane wrote: post #27

It clearly shows how the tax system based on taking a cut from profits is totally leaky and should be abandoned. It only results in endless cat and mouse game of tax consultants (the big 4) finding loopholes in such tax systems against governments trying to plug the holes, just with much smaller budget and efficiency than the tax-evasion consulting armies. There are other models of tax systems. Some are even not prod…

I completely agree, I would love to see a monopoly based tax system. I consider property ownership just a special case of a monopoly, since you have a monopoly on that plot of land. The one question you didn't broach here though is how you set the tax rate. Current systems do this on property by looking at the sale price, but property value can change, so they use an appraisal process. That's no good, it's expensive…

The Four Monopolies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Tucker#Four_monopolie...

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#47

Post by diplocorp »

beachy wrote: post #36
snidane wrote: post #27

It clearly shows how the tax system based on taking a cut from profits is totally leaky and should be abandoned. It only results in endless cat and mouse game of tax consultants (the big 4) finding loopholes in such tax systems against governments trying to plug the holes, just with much smaller budget and efficiency than the tax-evasion consulting armies. There are other models of tax systems. Some are even not prod…

You start out strongly, but then this: > Somebody appropriates for himself a valuable piece of land with oil deposits. He prevents others from utilizing that land. Let him pay for having that exclusive rights of use, since clearly the government is providing private property related services (police, courts and army to guarantee his property) for him that others (non-owners) are not getting. If by "appropriates for h…

How did the person he bought the land from acquire it?

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#48

Post by sidibe »

rb808 wrote: post #31
sidibe wrote: post #13

The EU allows a couple of its countries to act as tax havens. Ireland and the Netherlands are probably pretty pleased that EU citizens seem to direct all their outrage at the companies that do the obvious thing instead of at their tax laws.

You should check out the tax havens in the US before complaining about EU. Wyoming, Nevada etc https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-27/the-world...

I'm not complaining about the EU or comparing with US, I'm just pointing out that if the rage many EU citizens feel about the taxes of large corporations should be addressed by the EU somehow instead of hoping companies start paying some moral amount of taxes.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#49

Post by nafey »

beachy wrote: post #36
snidane wrote: post #27

It clearly shows how the tax system based on taking a cut from profits is totally leaky and should be abandoned. It only results in endless cat and mouse game of tax consultants (the big 4) finding loopholes in such tax systems against governments trying to plug the holes, just with much smaller budget and efficiency than the tax-evasion consulting armies. There are other models of tax systems. Some are even not prod…

You start out strongly, but then this: > Somebody appropriates for himself a valuable piece of land with oil deposits. He prevents others from utilizing that land. Let him pay for having that exclusive rights of use, since clearly the government is providing private property related services (police, courts and army to guarantee his property) for him that others (non-owners) are not getting. If by "appropriates for h…

Land is extremely limited in supply. If there is one thing that should not be openly bought and sold in markets (apart from humans) it is land.

Re: Google now pays more money in EU fines than it pays in taxes

#50

Post by writepub »

shaki-dora wrote: post #42
writepub wrote: post #33

Completely disingenuous representation. ALL of EU has Value Added Taxation, that takes money from every transaction to/from corps. For instance, buying ads on Google would automatically incur these taxes. What EU really wants is double/triple taxation where: 1. They tax your transactions as VAT 2. Income post these taxes are counted as revenues, and costs (excluding VAT) are deducted to calculate profits. 3. Profits…

First of all, VAT is collected by the vendor. But the entity actually taxed is the customer. That's why VAT is an explicit line item on any bill. Second, almost all customers of Google Ads are businesses, with the resultant right get refunds for any VAT paid. Third, because of [second], most customers likely take a shortcut: if you add your VAT registration number to your account, Google does not even charge VAT.

> First of all, VAT is collected by the vendor

VAT is collected by the government. Just because VAT appears as a line item on a bill, doesn't mean the vendor gets to book that as revenues.

> Second, almost all customers of Google Ads are businesses, with the resultant right get refunds for any VAT paid.

You mean, the business itself might charge a VAT from it's customer, and deduct the VAT it pays to vendors as "cost" during taxation. There are NO REFUNDS of VAT from the government!!

> if you add your VAT registration number to your account, Google does not even charge VAT.

Doesn't mean the transaction has 0% VAT fee, the EU/government GETS it's VAT on valid transactions, one way or another. If you somehow avoid VAT reaching the government, you're violating the law! AND, Google is NOT the beneficiary of VAT, regulation typically requires a seller to charge VAT and pass it on to the government.

Let's talk VAT numbers the EU gets from Google (as both a seller, buyer), and income taxes paid by GOOG employees before demonizing them

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