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Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

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Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#41

Post by prophesi »

dataflow wrote: post #40
prophesi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's why GDPR came into being, and California's recent data privacy law. We have no reason to have faith in these companies to keep our data safe, or to use it properly. After 10+ years of having our credit card numbers, social security numbers, emails, passwords, and so on leaked again and again, I fail to see how one wouldn't have trust issues at this point.

I never said you can't have trust issues or that GDPR isn't necessary, I'm saying neither of those implies they are invading your privacy when they show you ads based on your emails. This should be pretty clear?

The root of the issue is that if they _are_ invading your privacy, you wouldn't be able to tell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#42

Post by mehrdadn »

prophesi wrote: post #41
dataflow wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said you can't have trust issues or that GDPR isn't necessary, I'm saying neither of those implies they are invading your privacy when they show you ads based on your emails. This should be pretty clear?

The root of the issue is that if they _are_ invading your privacy, you wouldn't be able to tell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

Yes, and if they aren't, you wouldn't be able to tell either, so all that means is you're willing to recklessly make unjustified accusations to defame a company without actual evidence.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#43

Post by prophesi »

mehrdadn wrote: post #42
prophesi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root of the issue is that if they _are_ invading your privacy, you wouldn't be able to tell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

Yes, and if they aren't, you wouldn't be able to tell either, so all that means is you're willing to recklessly make unjustified accusations to defame a company without actual evidence.

Well, we already know they require reading your emails to power their Smart features. That's enough of an invasion of my privacy to use a FOSS alternative, and I'll always be an advocate for this.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#45

Post by azatris »

Markoff wrote: post #44

clickbaity title, it's article actually about lazy people, I quit Facebook completely and pretty much Google besides search in browser, so not sure what's the point of article

I am not lazy, but cannot quit Facebook, as it is a valuable resource for events and keeping contact with people, both close and far.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#46

Post by azatris »

Would a solution to Facebook's monopoly be allowing other companies to interface into their systems and databases as it's more of a public good than a private one people can reasonably opt out of?

So I'd expect something like a company coming out allowing you to do everything Facebook does and use the same data with events and everything, but that does not ask you to give away your data.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#47

Post by valker43 »

epistasis wrote: post #4
pas wrote: post #2

> " They are willing to give up privacy for free email. " How exactly does Google/GMail violate the users' privacy with email? They process the messages, show hyper-targeted ads. End of story. But is there a Cambridge Analytica for GMail? Can some "app" exfiltrate the emails? Or the contacts of users?

What you describe sounds exactly like giving up privacy to me, even if it doesn't sound like giving up privacy to you. And then when you add in all the other tracking that Google does of your web history, search history, location data, that is pretty much all your privacy gone. Let's say I pay an assistant to help with my email. Even though they are in my employ, I'm still giving up my privacy for the service. Google…

In essence, yes. Except the human assistant could technically be coerced to spill the beans on you. Via bribes or blackmail, etc.

Gmail dosen't. The ads you see have nothing to do with your mail activity. They haven't for a while now. Not saying Google is a paragon of privacy, mind you.

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6603?hl=en

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#48

Post by pas »

prophesi wrote: post #43
mehrdadn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and if they aren't, you wouldn't be able to tell either, so all that means is you're willing to recklessly make unjustified accusations to defame a company without actual evidence.

Well, we already know they require reading your emails to power their Smart features. That's enough of an invasion of my privacy to use a FOSS alternative, and I'll always be an advocate for this.

Which makes sense, but reading emails to provide smart features is not an automatic loss of privacy.

Google runs the SmartBot2000 software for you. If you use FOSS but run it on AWS EC2, you still need to trust the software, manage the upgrades (or trust the auto upgrade feature, trust the maintainers), and trust AWS for not fucking with your VM.

We have a few physical servers. And probably always will. We run our own email, but also use gmail too. Because sometimes our email breaks, sometimes [understandably fewer times] gmail breaks (or is not available, such as in China). And we will probably always run our email, but it's a lot of work, and it's not for everybody. And even though postfix, dovecot and K9/thunderbird/roundcube are all fine, they are not as smart as gmail. (but usually snappier)

You need decades of experience to set up a secure email host. GMail does it for people in exchange for showing them ads. (uBlock FTW, BTW)

NSA/Prism is a valid reason to use your own mailserver, but then again, keeping up with TLS/OpenSSL issues is a valid reason to use a non-self-hosted solution (as they do it for you, though gmail accepts unencrypted SMTP :/).

And of course, at the end of the day, there's ProtonMail!

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#49

Post by pas »

bassman9000 wrote: post #36
pas wrote: post #2

> " They are willing to give up privacy for free email. " How exactly does Google/GMail violate the users' privacy with email? They process the messages, show hyper-targeted ads. End of story. But is there a Cambridge Analytica for GMail? Can some "app" exfiltrate the emails? Or the contacts of users?

They process the messages That's SVspeak for they read your emails Yes, yes. I know it's a machine.

Any email host reads you emails. And not everyone is up to the task of hosting their own emails.

Re: Why no one really quits Google or Facebook

#50

Post by prophesi »

pas wrote: post #48
prophesi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we already know they require reading your emails to power their Smart features. That's enough of an invasion of my privacy to use a FOSS alternative, and I'll always be an advocate for this.

Which makes sense, but reading emails to provide smart features is not an automatic loss of privacy. Google runs the SmartBot2000 software for you. If you use FOSS but run it on AWS EC2, you still need to trust the software, manage the upgrades (or trust the auto upgrade feature, trust the maintainers), and trust AWS for not fucking with your VM. We have a few physical servers. And probably always will. We run our ow…

Very true! I personally use both ProtonMail and Tutanota, and give my thanks to Proton for opening their OpenPGP library. I don't think the source to their servers is open, but that's not necessary since:

1) you can't verify they're actually running that code anyway

2) it's end-to-end encrypted so as long as the client-side code is indeed doing its part, your message could be sent to everyone on the planet without any fear of anyone figuring out its plaintext.

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