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Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

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Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#41

Post by james_s_tayler »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #2

The answer is no secret but it's hard to achieve. The fastest way to learn a new language fluently is to speak it, constantly. Yes, it's easier for children to acquire a new language but they learn it because they are constantly forced to use it. I've known a number of people that have lived in a foreign country yet they did not learn the language. Why? Because they could get away with using English most of the time.…

I pretty much did this with Japanese but there are a few caveats. Namely informal grammar study as fast as possible and learn to read quick as you can are also massive, massive boosters.

Of all the language learning methods I've seen I've only seen one thing consistent across all of them that in the end leads to results and that is you have to legitimately feel that it's deeply important to your life story to actually learn it to fluency. At some level you actually just have to care about the outcome. It's an emotional switch that once flipped, actually the method is irrelevant. I've seen every which way work. The constant was that it mattered to those people. And no one knows how to turn that switch on/off. Therefore I agree with the sentiment no one knows how to do it. I guess I'd be more specific and say that no one knows a fool proof method to engineer the outcome because it relies on emotional states and belief systems. As for the intellectual understanding of how to execute against learning a language. Plenty of seasoned language learners know full well what works and what doesn't.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#42

Post by jasim »

mikekchar wrote: post #22

I'm going to skip my usual really, really, long explanation. Long story short: TFA is wrong. Many people know how to learn a language. Many people learn several languages because after learning how to learn one, they realised it's not that hard. Main problem people have: they have unrealistic expectations. Children don't have a magic ability to learn languages. They take 10-20 years to learn up to adult level profici…

If someone wants to learn a language just to enjoy its language & literature, and not necessarily be conversant in it, then would it be okay to never speak it? Or is conversation an essential practice?

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#43

Post by mkl »

radicalbyte wrote: post #25
lordnacho wrote: post #20

I grew up with four languages around me and am currently learning another, having also added a couple of others before. Here's my take on it: - For a child, every lesson in everything is a language lesson. Everyone you come across will correct you. Everyone will add to your vocabulary. Say you're cooking, or going to the zoo. You'll learn what pots and pans are, all the animals in the zoo, some verbs that are relevan…

> If you're British, "scarf" and "giraffe" rhyme. > In American English, they don't. They don't rhyme in British English either. Maybe in one of the regional dialects - I think that you could probably force it in a scouse (Liverpool) accent.

FWIW they rhyme in New Zealand English. "Laugh" rhymes with them too.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#44

Post by james_s_tayler »

injb wrote: post #3
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #2

The answer is no secret but it's hard to achieve. The fastest way to learn a new language fluently is to speak it, constantly. Yes, it's easier for children to acquire a new language but they learn it because they are constantly forced to use it. I've known a number of people that have lived in a foreign country yet they did not learn the language. Why? Because they could get away with using English most of the time.…

This. The author of the article says: "If there were someone who knew how to learn new languages, we would all know it. They would be uniquely and unquestionably skilled at producing new language speakers. They would be very visible: everybody would be flocking to their doors and imitating them." He seems to be confusing "learn" with "teach". All of the above would be true if he said "if there were someone who knew h…

You nailed it with final quote. You can say shit that might motivate people but you can't reliably engineer them into the emotional state required to pull off disgustingly hard shit like like becoming world class at something. That's just an internal state that you either wind up at or you don't. And its the key ingredient.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#45

Post by viraptor »

I got curious about the CIA notes. When I was at uni, a GCHQ person tried to recruit people from the class. One of the things he mentioned was that they want people to pick up new languages and it's common to learn them during your career. I wonder if it's the same as in CIA (we can now claim we have an X-speaking analysts), or if the situation there is better for some reason. Does anyone know more details?

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#46

Post by james_s_tayler »

yorwba wrote: post #12
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #2

The answer is no secret but it's hard to achieve. The fastest way to learn a new language fluently is to speak it, constantly. Yes, it's easier for children to acquire a new language but they learn it because they are constantly forced to use it. I've known a number of people that have lived in a foreign country yet they did not learn the language. Why? Because they could get away with using English most of the time.…

> NEVER speak your native language with that person. Only use the language you want to learn with him or her. You don't have to be quite that strict, it's enough to have dedicated time slots where you won't allow yourself to escape learning by switching languages. The most efficient way is to find someone who wants to learn your language and do tandem learning, so they're motivated to slog through correcting your mis…

The most efficient way is to be surrounded by people who don't speak your language but who also have a social reason to be interested in you. Complicated to explain, but buddying up with people to do language exchange is pretty garbage. The goals are fundamentally at odds for both parties so there is always this weird tug of war and the partnerships in my experience don't last because of it. It's not a friendship, so you're not in natural situations and the "so what did you do last weekend" small talk is just that. Small talk. Building real relationships works magic. Make friends on the other hand and hang out with them all the time and shit starts to accelerate pretty quick. The tricky part is actually making friends because before you can really speak you just aren't interesting. But if you can solve for that, and there are ways, then it's the sweet spot.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#47

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Over the past several years, I've been fascinated with what linguists do in the large: not the narrow, tight study of particular language aspects, the broad understanding of human languages in general.

One thing I think I got from this: languages are spoken not written. Once you start writing a language it becomes something else. In some cases, you even end up with an official language. A standard.

Human language is the use of sounds to negotiate meaning. So yes, immersion really is the only way to learn because with immersion all you really care about is whether meaning can be transferred around, not whether it's "right" or not. All of that correctness stuff is a different thing entirely than language. Perhaps the author's goal might be "speak language X well enough that others don't realize it's their second language". It's a laudable goal. I'm just not convinced it qualifies as learning a language. (In the colloquial sense, sure.)

People are actually experts in creating and learning languages. They take what they know, extend it a little bit, and work it into some pattern of speech that conveys meaning. Any time you hear somebody who's new to your country speak in a way that half their old way, half the new way, you're hearing somebody create a language.

But if you want to start fooling people, to invisibly blend into a society and not give anything away with your speech, I think you're going to need stressors, either internal or external. Otherwise your brain is going to learn just enough to get by, just like it learns everything else.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#48

Post by v4ult »

mikekchar wrote: post #22

I'm going to skip my usual really, really, long explanation. Long story short: TFA is wrong. Many people know how to learn a language. Many people learn several languages because after learning how to learn one, they realised it's not that hard. Main problem people have: they have unrealistic expectations. Children don't have a magic ability to learn languages. They take 10-20 years to learn up to adult level profici…

I found your comment interesting. If you have a longer version or blog post written anywhere I'd like to read it.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#49

Post by james_s_tayler »

jasim wrote: post #42
mikekchar wrote: post #22

I'm going to skip my usual really, really, long explanation. Long story short: TFA is wrong. Many people know how to learn a language. Many people learn several languages because after learning how to learn one, they realised it's not that hard. Main problem people have: they have unrealistic expectations. Children don't have a magic ability to learn languages. They take 10-20 years to learn up to adult level profici…

If someone wants to learn a language just to enjoy its language & literature, and not necessarily be conversant in it, then would it be okay to never speak it? Or is conversation an essential practice?

In that case you can never speak it and still achieve your goals. You'll find you can get stunningly far in your comprehension and totally clam up when confronted with an actual conversation that you will do dismally bad it. It's quite funny almost. They might as well be orthogonal skills.

It's very fun and rewarding to just dive into pop culture and literature and enjoy that one aspect. I've loved it every time I've done just that dimension. Though you inevitably wind up feeling like you want to speak with people.

Re: Nobody Knows How to Learn a Language

#50

Post by viraptor »

> If there were someone who knew how to learn new languages, we would all know it. They would be uniquely and unquestionably skilled at producing new language speakers.

The thing is... There are people like that. They may not know how to teach that to others, but if you look at simultaneous translators, they don't just know another language. They know 4 or more fluently. And maybe pick up another one over summer holiday just for fun. (At least the ones I know did that)

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