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Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

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Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I'm also surprised at the two places I thought would have more public transport usage. Really, only 30% of NYC? Taxis don't count as "public transport" here.

I think the less ambiguous name is "collective transport". Taxis are public transport almost everywhere.

There is also the term "mass transit" that excludes taxis exactly because they don't help solving the congestion and pollution problems.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#42
post #27

I don't think there is such a great divide. The greater divide is between people who own a car (or cars) and who do not, however, seems for USA it is a divide between New York City and the rest of the country. Also, I can comment on one thing I personally enjoy a lot – walking. I lived in many European cities, and recently moved to USA, so I can comment on it. To be able to walk, you need to live close enough to your…

I too enjoy walking around European cites much more than US cities. On a Brussels trip I commented on how interesting and winding the streets were to a family friend, she pointed out that it made it harder for tanks to drive through a city. That matter of fact response brought into sharp focus the disparity between cites that had been rebuilt several times and those which haven't.

There was also the adaptation from cities that were built when walking and horses were the main transportation modes which remain amenable to walking today.

All said, it seems like a renewed interest in the impact of urban design on things like walkability and livability have come back into fashion and some cities are taking their cues from that with their urban renewal projects. As a really interesting example of that has been the evolution of zoning laws which allow for mixed use buildings (commercial and residential) which are sprouting up all around the Bay Area. This is something that was pretty much unthinkable in the late 90's.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#43
post #31

> We are cleaving into two nations—one where daily life revolves around the car, and the other where the car is receding in favor of walking, biking, and transit. Walking, biking, and transit are not actually the same thing, except that they are "not driving". So it's more accurate to say that there are two kinds of commuters, those that take cars and those that don't. There's absolutely nothing new about this though…

Ignoring all the other problems, like car crashes, urban land-use, infrastructure spending to support them, etc, their emissions alone should be a clear moral issue when talking about cars. When the alternatives (walking, public transit, and bicycling) are orders of magnitude more efficient, it's absolutely a moral issue.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#44

Warning: speculation. Suppose that a city’s value and economy descend in large part from connectivity. A transit system is extremely useful at a few very specific points, but your connectedness drops off sharply as you get even a few blocks away from it, due to the extreme inefficiency of walking or (worse) waiting for a connecting bus. A road network’s utility is broad and diffuse, with gentle gradients of utility f…

Doesn't a transit system complement a road network? Rapid transit serves the most trips when either the source or destination (or both) are in the urban center. The road network is typically most congested in the urban center. Thus, transit reduces congestion in the areas that would otherwise be most congested, making the road network more useful. Perhaps "car-oriented cities" simply haven't yet reached the density (…

The problem is, is that car orientated cities tend to grow out, rather than densify. So you never get the critical mass, where transit becomes required.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#45

I'm not sure why but the transit system in my city seems to keep making decisions and changes that benefit people making short trips within the central areas while detrimenting those that use it to commute outwards to work. I'm not sure the reasoning for this. But every time the schedules or fares change it always becomes more difficult, takes longer and costs more to travel to outer areas.

Off the top of my head, the reason is probably because there just isn't a critical mass of people heading in the other direction that would make financial sense for them to run trains/buses in that direction, not to mention the last mile problem of how to get to your job after you're dropped in the suburban transit center with no public transit available to get you from the transit center to your office.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#46

Warning: speculation. Suppose that a city’s value and economy descend in large part from connectivity. A transit system is extremely useful at a few very specific points, but your connectedness drops off sharply as you get even a few blocks away from it, due to the extreme inefficiency of walking or (worse) waiting for a connecting bus. A road network’s utility is broad and diffuse, with gentle gradients of utility f…

Related anecdote: I was recently looking at home prices in Chicago, and it seems that people place an enormous value on easy access to the train system. Just eyeballing it, it looked like a house that's less than 1 mile from the nearest train station commands about a $150-$200,000 premium over one that's more than 2 miles from the L.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#47
post #27

I don't think there is such a great divide. The greater divide is between people who own a car (or cars) and who do not, however, seems for USA it is a divide between New York City and the rest of the country. Also, I can comment on one thing I personally enjoy a lot – walking. I lived in many European cities, and recently moved to USA, so I can comment on it. To be able to walk, you need to live close enough to your…

Agreed, a walking commute needs to be reasonably safe. I'm fortunate enough to live and work somewhere that has a few "interesting and beautiful" places along the way, but still, a significant portion of my walk goes through places where armed robberies and property crimes are a common occurrence.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#48

Would be really interesting to see this done on a map of Europe. You'd think there's a lot more public transit used. As a visitor to the US, the main thing that strikes me is always the vast amount of car related space there. Wider roads, massive car parks. Places with no sidewalk! And I'm also surprised at the two places I thought would have more public transport usage. Really, only 30% of NYC? I guess it's sparse o…

The population of San Francisco itself was actually only about 880,000 as of 2017. The Census Bureau calculated a net 20% increase in SF's daytime population from commuters in 2010[0], so that would bring the number of people up to just over a single million at the lower bound.

[0] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-weekday-population-increas...

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#49
post #6

These maps don't show a dam thing and the analysis is super weak. Its common sense that people in cities make more money and are more likely to walk to work. Then workers in rural areas drive alone to work and make less money. https://xkcd.com/1138/

Ironic that the people making more money walk, (which historically has been what poor people do). And the current poorer people use a privately owned transport vehicle. That would not be common sense to an American living more than 100 years ago. :)

You mean places like Silucon Valley where people walk to work? A huge number of the good professional urban area jobs are not actually in the cities. And for those which are many mid-career and older workers live in suburbs or even further out.

Re: Great Divide in How Americans Commute to Work

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't a transit system complement a road network? Rapid transit serves the most trips when either the source or destination (or both) are in the urban center. The road network is typically most congested in the urban center. Thus, transit reduces congestion in the areas that would otherwise be most congested, making the road network more useful. Perhaps "car-oriented cities" simply haven't yet reached the density (…

This is kind of a chicken-egg situation. You can't reach the high-density requirement when cars are the primary means of transportation. Cars are an extraordinarily low-density means of transportation. And some evidence, based on city age, seems to suggest that cities built with cars in mind (e.g., non-east coast cities in the U.S.) tend to sprawl quite a bit.

That's true, I guess that ties back into a counterargument to the parent's point, that the connectedness issue with transit would be mitigated had the city been planned differently.
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