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Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

cdecl.org

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Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading for both ends is maddening for seasoned devs, but in a general sense most languages are symbol salads these days for arbitrary, subjective reasons. The decisions made during the C development to squeeze the juice out of 60 character wide terminals haunt us to this day... like case sensitivity

> like case sensitivity What's wrong with case sensitivity?

Sure the current doctrine of programming says its good, but lets take a step back. First of all its counter intuitive to writing English and it damages readability so you may have naming conflicts without realizing it or the compiler being able to warn you.

Also, in addition to remembering what a function is called you have to also remember its casing which different libraries may want to be phrased differently (like C libraries versus C++ libraries).

Bypassing the very real issues it may cause in the design of your software it also may lead to silly library cruft (see Java's Color class) - how many ways can you spell blue?

https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/awt/Color.htm...

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like case sensitivity What's wrong with case sensitivity?

Sure the current doctrine of programming says its good, but lets take a step back. First of all its counter intuitive to writing English and it damages readability so you may have naming conflicts without realizing it or the compiler being able to warn you. Also, in addition to remembering what a function is called you have to also remember its casing which different libraries may want to be phrased differently (like…

Case-sensitivity is, more or less, a default: you have different strings that have distinct encodings, so you treat them as different identifiers.

The alternative to case-sensitivity requires your compiler to know about case, and, more importantly, how to do case-folding. At that point, you can either choose to (a) restrict identifiers to a Some (probably ASCII) limited subset of characters, (b) only make some subset of acceptable characters (reliably) case-insensitive, (c) require every compiler to have tables for case-folding.

That's before we get into the locale-dependence of case-folding, which makes the letter "i" unreliable.

And you still have to distinguish Color and Colour.

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like case sensitivity What's wrong with case sensitivity?

Sure the current doctrine of programming says its good, but lets take a step back. First of all its counter intuitive to writing English and it damages readability so you may have naming conflicts without realizing it or the compiler being able to warn you. Also, in addition to remembering what a function is called you have to also remember its casing which different libraries may want to be phrased differently (like…

Case insensitivity sounds good except it quickly runs afoul of "language isn't so simple."

If I define a variable as "groß", does "GROSS" or "GROẞ" match it (or both, which probably implies "gross" would match as well)? What about "ê" and "E"? Or the infamous i/I/İ/ı debacle, which could make matching "insane" to "INSANE" locale-dependent? How do you define case-insensitivity in a way that makes sense?

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure the current doctrine of programming says its good, but lets take a step back. First of all its counter intuitive to writing English and it damages readability so you may have naming conflicts without realizing it or the compiler being able to warn you. Also, in addition to remembering what a function is called you have to also remember its casing which different libraries may want to be phrased differently (like…

Case insensitivity sounds good except it quickly runs afoul of "language isn't so simple." If I define a variable as "groß", does "GROSS" or "GROẞ" match it (or both, which probably implies "gross" would match as well)? What about "ê" and "E"? Or the infamous i/I/İ/ı debacle, which could make matching "insane" to "INSANE" locale-dependent? How do you define case-insensitivity in a way that makes sense?

These are solved problems though and unicode identifiers are rare in practice...

See Normalization Form KC and Clause 21 of ISO/IEC 10646:2017.

"Normalization forms are the mechanisms allowing the selection of a unique coded representation among alternative; but equivalent coded text representations of the same text. Normalization forms for use with ISO/IEC 10646 are specified in the Unicode Standard UAX#15..." yada yada

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure the current doctrine of programming says its good, but lets take a step back. First of all its counter intuitive to writing English and it damages readability so you may have naming conflicts without realizing it or the compiler being able to warn you. Also, in addition to remembering what a function is called you have to also remember its casing which different libraries may want to be phrased differently (like…

Case-sensitivity is, more or less, a default: you have different strings that have distinct encodings, so you treat them as different identifiers. The alternative to case-sensitivity requires your compiler to know about case , and, more importantly, how to do case-folding. At that point, you can either choose to (a) restrict identifiers to a Some (probably ASCII) limited subset of characters, (b) only make some subse…

It is actually possible to define all of those things in a compiler standard and force them to do it certain ways or document possible "implementation permissions", but, again unicode identifiers are rare in practice because programming is designed for English speakers like it or not.

http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/2xaarm/html/AA-2-3.html

> And you still have to distinguish Color and Colour.

Still have to do that with case sensitive langs - whats the point here?

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#47
post #3

Here's an easy way to understand how these things work: in C, the type of a pointer/function/array mess is declared by how it's used. For a declaration like "int ( * ( * foo)(void))[3]", you can read it as "for a variable foo, after computing the expression ( * ( * foo)(void))[3], the result is an int." So one way to read C "gibberish" is to ignore the type at the beginning and parse the rest as an expression like a…

[deleted]

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#48
post #3

Here's an easy way to understand how these things work: in C, the type of a pointer/function/array mess is declared by how it's used. For a declaration like "int ( * ( * foo)(void))[3]", you can read it as "for a variable foo, after computing the expression ( * ( * foo)(void))[3], the result is an int." So one way to read C "gibberish" is to ignore the type at the beginning and parse the rest as an expression like a…

However the declaration-mirrors-use idea does not apply to function arguments. If you have "void (* f)(int * arg)", you would not use it like "(* f)(* arg)" unless your arg is actually "int * * ".

This could be fixed. Instead of "void (* f)(int * x)" we would write "void (* f)(x &int)". Now it makes sense, the declaration says that we could call the function if we pass the address of some int y, as if by "(* f)(&y)". The specific syntax "x &int" says that the address of an int is x, the same way as "int * x" says that dereferenced x is an int.

What about "void (* f)(int x[10])" (pretending arrays could actually be passed)? With the pointer we relied on the existing opposite of the dereference operator, but there is nothing like that for arrays, that would make an array out of an element. Let's look to Python for inspiration, where the expression "[y]* N" will make a list of N elements with the value y. This gives us: "void (* f)(x [int]* N)". See how the declaration tells us that we could call the function using "(* f)([y]* N)" for some int y.

There's one more we need to solve: "void (* f)(void (* g)(int))". Since the parameter g of * f is a function pointer, we need to pass the address of a function, so clearly & will be involved. But we need a function to take the address of, and we don't have any available. Inspired by the C++ lambda syntax, let's invent function conjuration: "(Args) -> Ret" is an expression that conjures a function taking Args and returning Ret. Hence the solution: "void (* f)(g &(int) -> void)". It says that you could write "(* f)(&(int) -> void)", to call * f with the address of a conjured function taking an int and returning void.

We do need to be aware that the syntax for arguments in function conjuration expressions is the same as in top-level declarations. So we would need to rewrite "void (* f)(void (* g)(void (* h)(int * x)))" as "void (* f)(g &(void (* h)(x &int)) -> void)". So for each function pointer, its arguments must be declared in the other declaration mode.

Since this makes no sense at all, we have to conclude that the original C declaration syntax forms needs to be deprecated and only the newly invented syntax forms should be used.

  x ∫   (int * x)
  x &∫   (int * * x)
  f &(x &int) -> void;   (void (* f)(int * x))
  f &(x [int]* 10) -> void;   (void (* f)(int x[10]))
The new syntax can also be used for function declarations:

  main (argc int, argv [&char]*?) -> int
  {
      return 0;
  }
See how we've invented a different declaration syntax (some sort of dual of C's current syntax), that actually respects "declaration-mirrors-use" better than C does and makes much more sense to humans.

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case insensitivity sounds good except it quickly runs afoul of "language isn't so simple." If I define a variable as "groß", does "GROSS" or "GROẞ" match it (or both, which probably implies "gross" would match as well)? What about "ê" and "E"? Or the infamous i/I/İ/ı debacle, which could make matching "insane" to "INSANE" locale-dependent? How do you define case-insensitivity in a way that makes sense?

These are solved problems though and unicode identifiers are rare in practice... See Normalization Form KC and Clause 21 of ISO/IEC 10646:2017. "Normalization forms are the mechanisms allowing the selection of a unique coded representation among alternative; but equivalent coded text representations of the same text. Normalization forms for use with ISO/IEC 10646 are specified in the Unicode Standard UAX#15..." yada…

Unicode normalization doesn't actually solve a single problem I mentioned. All of the listed characters are equal to themselves in both NFC and NFKC.

Also Unicode identifiers aren't rare in terms of language support. Most of the popular languages support them--C/C++, C#, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Swift, Go, Rust, Ruby, JavaScript, even Ada. It's actually difficult to find a popular language that prohibits Unicode identifiers entirely (MATLAB does, not sure about Visual Basic).

Re: Cdecl – Turns English phrases into C declarations

#50
post #48
post #3

Here's an easy way to understand how these things work: in C, the type of a pointer/function/array mess is declared by how it's used. For a declaration like "int ( * ( * foo)(void))[3]", you can read it as "for a variable foo, after computing the expression ( * ( * foo)(void))[3], the result is an int." So one way to read C "gibberish" is to ignore the type at the beginning and parse the rest as an expression like a…

However the declaration-mirrors-use idea does not apply to function arguments. If you have "void (* f)(int * arg)", you would not use it like "(* f)(* arg)" unless your arg is actually "int * * ". This could be fixed. Instead of "void (* f)(int * x)" we would write "void (* f)(x &int)". Now it makes sense, the declaration says that we could call the function if we pass the address of some int y, as if by "(* f)(&y)".…

1) The use of the Python feature for arrays I find confusing as it is not orthogonal to the rest of your new and improved syntax for C.

Everywhere else, you change C's declaration order of , in your new syntax to place the identifier of the declarator first, followed by any pointer ops, and lastly the type. You are changing the pointer op "" from a prefix that needed to be read right-to-left, after locating the identifier of the declarator, into a suffix "&" following the identifier, to be read left-to-right.

I agree that your change to left-to-right declaration order is definitely more readable.

2) But in your array syntax, borrowed from Python, the type is placed inside the array brackets, which used to hold the constant-expression denoting the array size. The array size is moved from within the brackets to be last, instead of the type being last, as in all your other syntax "rules". So, for arrays, the declaration syntax no longer reads simply left-to-right, since type is between declarator identifier and array size.

Wouldn't this be clearer, to have the type last and the constant-expression remain inside the array brackets? C syntax: (void ( f)(int x[10]))

use this instead for your new C syntax: f &(x [10] int) -> void;

3) I have a similiar problem with your function syntax:

instead of:

main (argc int, argv [&char]*?) -> int { return 0; }

why not put the type last, so as to be consistent with all your other syntax?

main (argc int, argv [] &char]) -> int { return 0; }

This is how the Go programming language does it, except for the preceding "func" reserved word and "string" in place of pointer to char: func main(argc int, argv [] string) int ...

5) The biggest problem I have is with adding "C++ lambda syntax" to C, to solve the problem of passing a function as actual parameter argument. That would mean you have 2 styles of pointers, one as a prefix and one as a suffix to the declarator identifier. So you now have to read both right-to-left and left-to-right, which seems to cancel out the benefits of only reading declarations in left-to-right order!

Would it be simpler, and preserve left-to-right declaration order, to provide a FunctionType as in the Go programming language? A parameter that is passed a function as argument is declared to have a FunctionType. Pointers to function are not apparently needed, at least not at the user level.

6) Q: How do these proposed changes affect the parsing of the new C syntax? Current C syntax can be parsed with predictive, non-backtracking parsers, in linear-time. I don't want to use backtracking, GLR, or other complex methods, if they are avoidable. At least C can now be parsed with with Yacc or Bison. (See A13 Grammar in K&R, "The C Programming Language" or Jacques-Henri Jourdan, François Pottier "A Simple, Possibly Correct LR Parser for C11")

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