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Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

meltingasphalt.com

41–50 of 149 posts

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#41
post #31

"The point is, money spent on consumption is toxic — value-destroying" This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. Surely when comparing inequality in societies, what we really care about is consumption. Singling out billionaires as an example of how unequal our society, I feel, is disingenuous. How much more does Bill Gates really consume than your 'average Joe'? Sure, he presumably eats good food, we…

Instead of looking at his influence on the evonomy generally, I would look at the Gates foundation (where he has pledged most of his net worth) specifically.

The Gates foundation directs a large amount of resources not to "prudent economic decisions" (eg, it looses money), but to non economic priorities he set.

I have no particular complaints about the Gates foundation specifically, but in an idealized democracy, this scale of resource utilization would be subject to more democratic oversight (eg. Compare the CDC fighting malaria with appropriations from an elected congress to the Gates foundation doing so with appropriations from Bill Gates).

In practice, there is a lot of overhead to the democratic proceds, so we want more private charity then is ideal. And you are correct that there seems to be a limit on how much resources people consume before they start helping others (even if the way they help does not match the priorites of the general public)

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#42
post #31

"The point is, money spent on consumption is toxic — value-destroying" This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. Surely when comparing inequality in societies, what we really care about is consumption. Singling out billionaires as an example of how unequal our society, I feel, is disingenuous. How much more does Bill Gates really consume than your 'average Joe'? Sure, he presumably eats good food, we…

> High performing participants in the stock market gain more influence in it. This is an optimising feedback loop for the economy and is less fair (but more effective) than simply giving everyone an equal say in the matter. This assumes decisions which drive up the share price of Microsoft and/or the personal satisfaction of Bill Gates tends to yield better economic performance than decisions which represent what the…

Your point about inheritance is a very good one and is a rather major flaw in the capitalist model. Inheritance tax goes some way to dampening the transfer of power from one generation to the next but isn't perfect. Hard to see how this would conceptually be solved without required a 'robin hood' style system that 'resets' everyone's economic status regardless of who their parents are.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#43
The article is contrived, but the part he gets right is that spending money is exercising power, and it matters how you spend it (or give it away). If you're wealthy then you should think carefully about what you encourage by how you spend your money, to avoid encouraging the wrong things.

Once you've spent the money, though, other people will have it, and they have the power to spend it on their wishes. If you assume that people who did the work for you are basically good, this is a good thing. There's nothing wrong with a paycheck.

Maybe the problem isn't the money, it's the work? Are you creating bullshit jobs by spending your money on bullshit? But how do you evaluate that? What's honest work anyway? There are jobs are unpleasant and/or dangerous, but still jobs people are happy to have. Office work is comfortable, considering, and yet can be considered "soul-crushing" under some conditions. Maybe the yacht builders enjoy the work and live well?

This is all second-guessing other people's decisions at a distance. It's complicated enough that it's tempting to allow the market to hide all these issues under layers of abstraction. You usually don't get to review labor conditions anyway.

There are some attempts at breaking the abstractions by adding other abstractions, so we see labels like "fair trade" and so on. This supposedly lets you know what's going on at the other end of the supply chain. It's all fuzzy and reputation-based, though, which provides opportunities for cheating.

Maybe cut through the layers of abstraction? Directly hiring people makes you the boss and you get to decide what kind of boss you're going to be. But it's by no means certain you'll be a better boss than average, particularly if you're inexperienced.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#44

It's interesting to speculate on what would happen if some of these foundational assumptions of economics didn't hold. What if money actually became more valued than what you can buy with money ? What if supply didn't create its own demand? What if people didn't try to make money to satisfy their own wants, but to one-up their neighbors in the pissing match of life? You'd see a lot of strange behavior. Instead of con…

And what happens when you use your francs to build a robot to make grain for you? You have all the grain you need and can undercut competitors, buy up their land and corner the market. It's the robot specs that become valuable. So how does the economy change when information becomes the new currency?

In the land of the blind, is the one eyed man king?

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#45
post #31

"The point is, money spent on consumption is toxic — value-destroying" This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. Surely when comparing inequality in societies, what we really care about is consumption. Singling out billionaires as an example of how unequal our society, I feel, is disingenuous. How much more does Bill Gates really consume than your 'average Joe'? Sure, he presumably eats good food, we…

Instead of looking at his influence on the evonomy generally, I would look at the Gates foundation (where he has pledged most of his net worth) specifically. The Gates foundation directs a large amount of resources not to "prudent economic decisions" (eg, it looses money), but to non economic priorities he set. I have no particular complaints about the Gates foundation specifically, but in an idealized democracy, thi…

"The Gates foundation directs a large amount of resources not to "prudent economic decisions" (eg, it looses money), but to non economic priorities he set."

This is true, and although certainly not a bad thing, is perhaps a sub-optimal allocation of economic output. There is perhaps an argument for having individuals with enough power to do this as a means of making decisions that are sub-optimal in the here and now, but over long enough spans of time turn out to be optimum. Another example would be investing in renewable energies.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#46
post #31

"The point is, money spent on consumption is toxic — value-destroying" This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. Surely when comparing inequality in societies, what we really care about is consumption. Singling out billionaires as an example of how unequal our society, I feel, is disingenuous. How much more does Bill Gates really consume than your 'average Joe'? Sure, he presumably eats good food, we…

> How much more does Bill Gates really consume than your 'average Joe'?

A lot. Just consider his preventative health care. I would bet it runs in the millions per year. Then consider the education and opportunities that he and his children got. And then consider that normal people cannot have those same things precisely because Bill Gates and his ilk lobby against any measures that might put some of the country's wealth towards those goals.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#47
post #6

This article is an interesting thought experiment, but I can't help but feel that the statements made are in such opposition to understood economic principle and call into question basic moral precepts. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it just feels alien to read. As an example of what I mean, the idea of consumption being a net-negative destructive action goes against the economic concept of velocity of money and how t…

I agree. I was in agreement with the article when it says that money we earn is a statement of the value we provide to society, so earning money is good, however, I don't agree with the statement that spending money and consumption is bad.

The example of the yacht is rather contrived as well. They talk about how all of the craftsmen and lumber workers had to chop down, dry, age, cut and polish the wood to make the yacht, however, it's somehow evil for us to buy it?

This seems rather ridiculous when you consider that the money used to buy that yacht paid the salaries and income of all the craftsmen and laborers that built it for you, compensating them for the value they provide to society. If there was nobody willing to consume or buy products, how would anyone make income?

This article seems to understand capitalism superficially, then demonstrates the authors know little about capitalism in the final paragraphs.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#48
post #34

You can't earn money if no one is spending it. That seems like an important fact that the author is missing.

What situation do you have in mind? As long as people have money, they’re going to spend some of it on food and clothing and entertainment.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#49
post #31

"The point is, money spent on consumption is toxic — value-destroying" This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. Surely when comparing inequality in societies, what we really care about is consumption. Singling out billionaires as an example of how unequal our society, I feel, is disingenuous. How much more does Bill Gates really consume than your 'average Joe'? Sure, he presumably eats good food, we…

> Sure, he presumably eats good food, wears better clothing and has a big house, but his personal consumption levels are probably no more than an order of magnitude greater than ours.

The median home price in Seattle is ~$700k, and Gate's house cost $127 million, so his consumption is probably much closer to two orders of magnitude greater.

Re: Wealth: The Toxic Byproduct (2013)

#50

It's interesting to speculate on what would happen if some of these foundational assumptions of economics didn't hold. What if money actually became more valued than what you can buy with money ? What if supply didn't create its own demand? What if people didn't try to make money to satisfy their own wants, but to one-up their neighbors in the pissing match of life? You'd see a lot of strange behavior. Instead of con…

> What if money actually became more valued than what you can buy with money?

"Value" is dependent on time. You can't ignore the time-value of money.

Money is the most liquid of assets and that confers it with specific features not shared by other assets. Every investment is a trade-off between liquidity, risk and return. Money maximizes liquidity and lets you optimize for just risk and return. This makes capital allocation simple which in turn lets you diversify away virtually all of your investments' idiosyncratic risk, leaving you exposed only to systematic risk. That is why money is more valuable than what you can buy with it. Because it can create more value over time (higher return) better than any other asset (with lower risk) while having maximum liquidity.

> What if supply didn't create its own demand?

It doesn't. Say's Law[0] is far from being a foundational assumption of Economics. We've moved far beyond that since at least Keynes.

> What if people didn't try to make money to satisfy their own wants, but to one-up their neighbors in the pissing match of life?

What if one-upping my neighbor is what I want out of life?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say%27s_law

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