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Clojure 1.10 release

clojure.org

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Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#41

Post by roenxi »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #22
roenxi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to demand perfection, then Clojure isn't going to meet your standards (what would?). The issue here is that, based on the way they (particularly Rich) talk, we can expect they will not do Bloody Stupid things like the old Python 2->3 changeover. Things like big, breaking changes that require architectural changes to keep current, or break all the available tutorials. If the problem can be fixed with a mac…

You don't think a breaking change to + is any more significant than a breaking change to some other part of the language?

I don't see how a change could be much more minor, honestly.

It is a breaking change, that sort of change could introduce bugs into existing codebases. If that matters, you can't upgrade your Clojure version without careful change management anyway.

It isn't like reduce is being depreciated or something. I don't need to change how I think about the language.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#42

Post by ghufran_syed »

kbd wrote: post #40
lsh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Startup time Java is not as bad as you think. Clojure does takes a little longer though > Ability to deploy/share a binary there are jar files, but I know what you mean. Interesting work happening in GraalVM land: https://www.innoq.com/en/blog/native-clojure-and-graalvm/ > Bias against Oracle and Java yeah, well ... we're all biased. It helps us make decisions quickly ;)

> Java is not as bad as you think. Clojure does takes a little longer though For example, I have a Python script[1] that runs on each command prompt to print status about my current git repository. Just timed it, it runs in .08-.12 seconds within a repo and about .02s outside of a repo. I still want to rewrite it in C using libgit2 someday, but something like that would be unusable if it was written in Clojure. [1] h…

Yeah, for scripting you should use something like Planck: it uses clojurescript which is virtually the same language as clojure, but starts up super fast so is great for scripts: https://github.com/planck-repl/planck

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#43

Post by zmmmmm »

kbd wrote: post #32
preordained wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on? The JVM is just a binary that runs byte code. It's stable and runs well pretty much everywhere. If you insist the JVM has cooties, you could use Docker and abstract it away, it might be an ideal way to use it anyways depending on your work. The JVM /= Oracle JVM by the way. There is OpenJDK EDIT: Also I think recent Java releases have gotten into making self contain…

> I guess I might ask what this stance is founded on? Kotlin has Kotlin/Native, so I was hoping there might be a similar initiative for Clojure. But, a few reasons: * Startup time * Ability to deploy/share a binary * The JVM just seems so "heavy" to me. It's certainly the only language runtime I know of that runs a persistent helper app, or asks to install an Ask toolbar upon installation. * Bias against Oracle and J…

> * Bias against Oracle and Java

It's always fascinating when I encounter people with opposite biases to my own. While I'm no fan of Oracle, I seek out technologies that are based on the JVM and try to avoid things based on many other technologies because I intrinsically trust certain behaviors and features of the JVM that other ecosystems lack.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#44

Post by lsh »

EuAndreh wrote: post #38
lsh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S-expressions are perhaps partly responsible as well. They don't suffer the same brittleness as regular programming languages (is there a word for non-s-expression languages like c/python/etc?).

M-expressions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression

that's a great link, cheers

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#45

Post by ghufran_syed »

trevor-e wrote: post #31
JBiserkov wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich Hickey is a great thinker. But he's also an application developer (Datomic). So breaking changes don't just break "other people's code" in the abstract. The pain is real and immediate. By wearing multiple hats he's finding the right balance in a way that language designers who don't code day-to-day simply can't.

The deification of Rich Hickey in this thread is amusing. No doubt he's a great developer and language designer, but dogfooding your own language is not exactly novel.

I think the original statement was implicitly about using the language to build large complex systems in industry, not just about "using" the language which I agree would be kind of silly - who would work on a language they don't use in some way? But I always had the impression that most language designers were academics, e.g Alan Kay, Stroustrup, or professional programmers building what were initially 'hobby' languages (Ruby, python) rather than building something they would use in production in industry.

Standards must be low if that's now "deification" :)

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#46

Post by billfruit »

While I like the language very well, tooling does have issues, even simple things like not distributing Leiningen with Clojure when it is almost essential for any serious development. Version incompatibilities between Leiningen and Clojure creates subtle problems. I also wonder what the experience of using lein in Windows, it seems to install using a mysterious batch file.

The emacs based tooling had too many components, and is very brittle, ie, a minor version bump in one of the component often renders the whole build/repl process unserviceable.

Usage of local jars is extremely difficult, you need to setup a local maven repository and then add dependencies through it, which is a very painful process, esp for hobby projects and prototyping. I should be working on my problem not wrangling with maven.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#47

Post by billfruit »

Nice to know that debug messages have improved. Ease of debugging would improve more, if an exception happens a live repl is spawned at that point allowing one to view locals/values, modify state, continue execution, etc.

Most lisps allows such live repls for debugging like Scheme and Emacs lisp, while clojure only provides a stacktace on exception, and not a repl.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#48

Post by marcrosoft »

Congrats. I'm trying to learn Common Lisp for great good. And, I love that lisp is still alive. I think we still haven't learned all that lisp has to offer.

For me personally, I think Clojure (or any lisp) targeting Go would be awesome.

The JVM lacks a killer Go "feature" which is _native binaries/easy deployment. Common lisp and many other lisps lack community which is why I think Go+Lisp would make a great combo. Go, even though it is a new language, already outpaces (a much older) Common Lisp as far as libraries go due to the huge community Go has.

I know there is `zygomys` but it doesn't reach Clojure popularity/maturity.

Can Clojure target Go?

Edit:

Maybe it is infeasible but I think targeting JVM, Go, and JavaScript would give Clojure a ridiculous advantage over almost any current programming language.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#49

Post by xapata »

marcrosoft wrote: post #48

Congrats. I'm trying to learn Common Lisp for great good. And, I love that lisp is still alive. I think we still haven't learned all that lisp has to offer. For me personally, I think Clojure (or any lisp) targeting Go would be awesome. The JVM lacks a killer Go "feature" which is _native binaries/easy deployment. Common lisp and many other lisps lack community which is why I think Go+Lisp would make a great combo. G…

All you'd need is a Clojure to Go compiler. A simple matter of implementation (joking). The good news is that Clojure is relatively easy to tokenize and has a simple grammar. Go v1's lack of generics would make the implementation tedious, but the features announced for Go v2 should make it easier.

Re: Clojure 1.10 release

#50

Post by drcode »

billfruit wrote: post #46

While I like the language very well, tooling does have issues, even simple things like not distributing Leiningen with Clojure when it is almost essential for any serious development. Version incompatibilities between Leiningen and Clojure creates subtle problems. I also wonder what the experience of using lein in Windows, it seems to install using a mysterious batch file. The emacs based tooling had too many compone…

Actually, I haven't used leiningen in 6 months, Clojure's new included cli tools work great these days.
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