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Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

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Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#41

Post by rhegart »

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

I would do it as well. These days only one opinion is safely allowed to be stated. If you work in the Bay and you disagree with Google’s protest against working for DoD, you’ll be socially outcast. People who are apathetic just go with the flow and burgeon the numbers of in my opinion a minority.

It’s difficukt to have an actual discussion, it gets dumbed down to the most basic dumbest arguments. You support war you are bad. This anti intellectualism is spread everywhere and in my opinion caused a very promising metoo movement to falter. They refused to differentiate between 2 evils. Al Franken is not Harvey Weinstein. Louis CK is not Roy Moore. USA is not China. Arguing with the majority in the Bay about this simple fact is like arguing with toddlers.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#42

Post by mikeash »

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

“And don't want to defend that government?“

Well, here’s the problem. How much of what the DoD does is actually defending our government, versus going off and killing far-away people who pose no threat to us for various murky reasons?

Do I want to contribute to keeping foreign armies off our soil? Sure! Do I want to contribute to drones blowing up weddings? Not really.

Maybe if our government would stop abusing our military so horribly, it would find more American experts willing to support that military.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#43

Post by madengr »

mikeash wrote: post #42
killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

“And don't want to defend that government?“ Well, here’s the problem. How much of what the DoD does is actually defending our government, versus going off and killing far-away people who pose no threat to us for various murky reasons? Do I want to contribute to keeping foreign armies off our soil? Sure! Do I want to contribute to drones blowing up weddings? Not really. Maybe if our government would stop abusing our m…

Most drone strikes blow people who’d gladly saw your head off.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#44

Post by killjoywashere »

mikeash wrote: post #42
killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

“And don't want to defend that government?“ Well, here’s the problem. How much of what the DoD does is actually defending our government, versus going off and killing far-away people who pose no threat to us for various murky reasons? Do I want to contribute to keeping foreign armies off our soil? Sure! Do I want to contribute to drones blowing up weddings? Not really. Maybe if our government would stop abusing our m…

The issue is that what you end up defending is the right of more malicious actors to acquire technology from the US below cost through low-cost, high-yield hacking.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#45

Post by mikeash »

madengr wrote: post #43
mikeash wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“And don't want to defend that government?“ Well, here’s the problem. How much of what the DoD does is actually defending our government, versus going off and killing far-away people who pose no threat to us for various murky reasons? Do I want to contribute to keeping foreign armies off our soil? Sure! Do I want to contribute to drones blowing up weddings? Not really. Maybe if our government would stop abusing our m…

Most drone strikes blow people who’d gladly saw your head off.

Even if true, they can’t.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#46

Post by mikeash »

killjoywashere wrote: post #44
mikeash wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“And don't want to defend that government?“ Well, here’s the problem. How much of what the DoD does is actually defending our government, versus going off and killing far-away people who pose no threat to us for various murky reasons? Do I want to contribute to keeping foreign armies off our soil? Sure! Do I want to contribute to drones blowing up weddings? Not really. Maybe if our government would stop abusing our m…

The issue is that what you end up defending is the right of more malicious actors to acquire technology from the US below cost through low-cost, high-yield hacking.

Do I? Or do I just not help to murder civilians on the other side of the planet? How can you be so sure that I’d only be helping the good side of the DoD?

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#47

Post by mindslight »

icanhazcoins wrote: post #32
killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

Additionally, I find it intellectually lazy to believe that assisting the military is morally wrong. What I think people (and in particular Americans) fail to consider is that if you really do feel that the political system is so corrupted that the will of the people has been subverted, what that actually morally requires you to do is to overthrow it. You cannot say "Oh well I didn't vote for the guy who started the…

> I find it intellectually lazy to believe that assisting the military is morally wrong

Even if you view the military as an amoral tool, then it's still immoral to contribute to its strength while it is under immoral control.

> You are responsible for everything that happens and is happening, and if you really believe that the system is so badly broken that we are involved in illegitimate wars then you need to take responsibility for that and stop it. Stop paying your taxes, organize your community against it. Be willing to sacrifice to make it happen

So I'm on board with this ethos, but then the question becomes to do what ?

If you act in a direct violent manner (which includes not rendering unto Caesar), the system attacks and contains you.

If you act in an economic manner (earning less to pay less taxes), you're heading away from the attractor of competition. The end result is living like the Amish, which while individually sustainable, has clearly not caught on.

If you make small actions under the idea they accumulate, then you get stuck in simulations (eg ethical consumption, voting).

If you narrow your focus to one topic, then you end up just fighting your fellow plebs with different priorities (eg SJWs).

I have long thought about this and still have come up with little. Cryptocurrency seemed promising, but then Bitcoin came along and vaccinated the state. With no straightforward answer it sort of feels like you're throwing out a straw man. While I'm all for kicking people to not compromise so readily, everybody compromises constantly. It is nonsensical to pick on someone who has partially compromised as being inconsistent for not having fully compromised. I would rather have them hold on to their ideology and still be looking for new doors.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#48

Post by lawrenceyan »

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

Your opinion is extremely arrogant, perhaps even more so than it is misinformed. The reasons for why you see a dearth of technical skilled labor entering the government workforce is a complex issue and is nowhere that black and white.

Since you mention military weaponry specifically though, the primary problem is in many academics/researchers being adverse to contributing to military projects. But can you really blame them? For many, they have spent the better part of their lives in cultivating their respective fields, and you expect them to be perfectly happy spending that on making it easier to kill people? People want to meaningfully contribute to making the world a better place, and I guarantee you'll find it very difficult to convince that computer scientist building a drone with better targeting capabilities for it's missiles to better kill people will result in fulfilling such a goal, no matter how you try to phrase it.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#49

Post by [deleted] »

resters wrote: post #37

Hackers breaching US Navy contractors tells us one important thing: That the US Navy is not doing adequate due diligence on the firms it allow to be contractors. This story is part of the campaign to present China as an unethical, capable adversary and threat. In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side and is meant to garner all the benefits of threat-orie…

[deleted]

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#50

Post by [deleted] »

resters wrote: post #37

Hackers breaching US Navy contractors tells us one important thing: That the US Navy is not doing adequate due diligence on the firms it allow to be contractors. This story is part of the campaign to present China as an unethical, capable adversary and threat. In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side and is meant to garner all the benefits of threat-orie…

[deleted]
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