Why airlines tend to be unionized • Hacker News Board

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#41

Post by ajaxian » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 2:54 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #13

A bit meta, but it's interesting to see how much this guy has reinvented himself over the years. Going from running the biggest, loudest, and most profitable software consulting firm in the world... to retiring to play with photography and airplanes... to junior pilot at a small airline. Some might say going from $MM/year CEO to $18k/year new guy would be a step down, but he seems to be genuinely enjoying the ride. I…

I think it's safe to say that Greenspun isn't working as a junior pilot for the money since not too many people making $18k/year have their own plane, helicopter and Acura NSX.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#42

Post by ajaxian » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 3:01 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #34

tomerico wrote: post #8

A pilot's job is one of the easiest to replace with a computer. It is already happening in the military. In fact, the only actual role of a pilot today is to take off and land the plane, the rest is auto-pilot. If the unions make it so hard to employ humans, it would only give incentive to further develop auto pilots, and the problem will solve itself.

Like the Sao Paulo-Paris A330 that crashed in the ocean mid flight? Was on autopilot, wasn't it ?

Thunderstorms and lightning don't care who's driving the plane.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#43

Post by rdouble » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 3:10 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #13

A bit meta, but it's interesting to see how much this guy has reinvented himself over the years. Going from running the biggest, loudest, and most profitable software consulting firm in the world... to retiring to play with photography and airplanes... to junior pilot at a small airline. Some might say going from $MM/year CEO to $18k/year new guy would be a step down, but he seems to be genuinely enjoying the ride. I…

the biggest, loudest, and most profitable software consulting firm in the world

At its apex aD had 200 employees and 20m in funding and maybe 10m in invoices. However, I'm going to update my resume with your version.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#44

Post by philwelch » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 3:35 PM UTC

cheald wrote: post #14

I think I've been working too long today. I read that headline and stared at it for a good 10 seconds trying to figure out why on earth airlines would be "un-ionized".

"In his essay To Tell a Chemist (1965), Isaac Asimov [7][8][9] claimed that one could distinguish a chemist from a non-chemist by asking a person to read the word "unionized" aloud. With no context given, he said that a chemist will pronounce it "un-ionized", but a non-chemist will pronounce it "union-ized"." --Wikipedia

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#45

Post by amalcon » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 3:41 PM UTC

tomerico wrote: post #8

A pilot's job is one of the easiest to replace with a computer. It is already happening in the military. In fact, the only actual role of a pilot today is to take off and land the plane, the rest is auto-pilot. If the unions make it so hard to employ humans, it would only give incentive to further develop auto pilots, and the problem will solve itself.

You don't pay pilots for the 9999 flights where nothing happens and the autopilot works fine. You pay them for the 1 flight where the autopilot either fails or encounters a situation it doesn't know how to handle, but amortize it over all the ones where it goes fine.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#46

Post by Symmetry » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 3:53 PM UTC

ahi wrote: post #36

Symmetry wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time new members get organized enough to start pushing for reforms, they're not far away from becoming senior members. They can't leave the union because the union doesn't want the airline to hire non-union workers. It isn't as bad as the UAW, though, where the majority of the voters aren't even workers any more but rather retirees.

Retirees don't vote.

They can't vote in certain elections, but are otherwise still full memebers. See here: http://www.uaw.org/node/158

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#47

Post by goatforce5 » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 3:54 PM UTC

ajaxian wrote: post #41

jasonkester wrote: post #13

A bit meta, but it's interesting to see how much this guy has reinvented himself over the years. Going from running the biggest, loudest, and most profitable software consulting firm in the world... to retiring to play with photography and airplanes... to junior pilot at a small airline. Some might say going from $MM/year CEO to $18k/year new guy would be a step down, but he seems to be genuinely enjoying the ride. I…

I think it's safe to say that Greenspun isn't working as a junior pilot for the money since not too many people making $18k/year have their own plane, helicopter and Acura NSX.

Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden got his commercial pilots license. You can assume he didn't do it for the money:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Dickinson#Aviation

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#48

Post by jat850 » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 4:24 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #3

This happens similarly in American professional sports. Young, incoming players can't choose their own team - instead, they're subject to a draft, and controlled by the team that drafted them for anywhere from 4 to 10 years. During that time, the players make very below market money and have no leverage. Then, after they become a free agent, they get overpaid relative to equilibrium. The veterans that have more say i…

The NFL is (currently) the exact opposite of what you describe. Draftees entering the league right now earn disproportionately higher amounts than many veterans, and it is a major point of contention in the upcoming CBA bargaining.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#49

Post by RickHull » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 4:25 PM UTC

Nitramp wrote: post #7

This seems a bit strange. If pilots were actually taking nearly all airline earnings, why are there airlines at all? Running an airline requires a substantial capital investment, and if the return on those investments is effectively zero (or much smaller than other businesses), then there shouldn't be airlines because it's just not a profitable business, right? The other thing is, given the rules he outlines, an airl…

> then there shouldn't be airlines because it's just not a profitable business, right?

Hence the constant bankruptcy / bailout cycle. They are in effect subsidized by the government. I believe American Airlines is the only legacy carrier not to have been through bankruptcy.

Re: Why airlines tend to be unionized

#50

Post by lsc » Wed, Nov 03, 2010, 4:28 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #20

lsc wrote: post #6

Regardless of whether the U.S. is able to maintain its trade barriers, a sustainable long-term structure would be a pilot-owned airline. If the pilots are the owners there need be no conflict concerning distributing profits. Selling the company to the union, or rather, worker-owned companies seem to be the best case solution to the "union problem" - If my employees started unionizing, that'd be my first shot at a sol…

Actually it would be more like, you sold it to the employees but they left you in charge since they don't have any experience running the company. Now you are free to make all the stupid decisions you like and they are stuck with the consequences. Great deal!

I have very little sympathy for people who hire managers to run their company and then complain that the managers are running the place in to the ground.

When you hire someone and they end up doing a poor job, it's your fault, and your responsibility to clean up the mess. This applies just as much to hiring managers as it does to hiring level 1 support techs.

Personally, I think that owners (or shareholders) that don't understand this (and that keep hiring managers who didn't act in the interest of owners at previous jobs) is a big part of what is wrong with our economy.