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Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

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Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#41

Post by Groxx »

tw04 wrote: post #33
graeme wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been stories outside Apple of Steve Jobs giving incredibly good feedback in a variety of areas and people being glad to have it. Have you considered the possibility that: 1. Steve Jobs was a couple of standard deviations better at this than almost anyone 2. As such, people were glad to get feedback from him 3. Such ability is rare and hard to identify, and so trying to replicate that structure is nonethele…

Like insisting that notes look like a leather bound notebook? I'm confident he had good ideas. I'm also confident he had plenty of horrible ideas... Just like most intelligent humans.

Given how much easier I've seen older relatives use iPhones in the skeuomorphic days vs now: I mostly lean towards skeuomorphic being preferable. It's not as fashionable now, but it is way more approachable and unambiguous.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#42

Post by reaperducer »

sjwright wrote: post #31
maxxxxx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he was very good. But from whatever I have read he was also a big jerk and could be very cruel to people.

I haven't read anything that suggests that Steve was cruel or a jerk for the sake of it.

I read his biography, and in it he came off like a jerk. Not a cruel person. But yes, a jerk. I liked Steve Jobs a lot more before I read his bio.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#43

Post by skybrian »

graeme wrote: post #16
benwerd wrote: post #12

This is how I know I would suck in a company like this. Yeah, it's Steve Jobs - but I find the level of reverence on show in this piece to be a little hard to take. It's certainly revealing of the culture there at the time. > And when you can get the time for thoughtful reflection on your idea from a visionary like Steve — well, that’s a good day. Being humble is one thing, but forcing yourself into this kind of fawn…

There have been stories outside Apple of Steve Jobs giving incredibly good feedback in a variety of areas and people being glad to have it. Have you considered the possibility that: 1. Steve Jobs was a couple of standard deviations better at this than almost anyone 2. As such, people were glad to get feedback from him 3. Such ability is rare and hard to identify, and so trying to replicate that structure is nonethele…

The hype and celebrity worship (even at the time) make it nearly impossible to distinguish the man from his reputation. So in the end, there are few facts you can point to, just an awful lot of opinions.

I mean, you could point to the many products he was involved in, but there are a lot of subjective opinions there too.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#44

Post by simonh »

jimbokun wrote: post #25
benwerd wrote: post #12

This is how I know I would suck in a company like this. Yeah, it's Steve Jobs - but I find the level of reverence on show in this piece to be a little hard to take. It's certainly revealing of the culture there at the time. > And when you can get the time for thoughtful reflection on your idea from a visionary like Steve — well, that’s a good day. Being humble is one thing, but forcing yourself into this kind of fawn…

"Being humble is one thing, but forcing yourself into this kind of fawning emotional servility feels dangerous to me." Ironically, this attitude may have made you a good candidate to work at Apple. There are many anecdotes about Steve being blunt with people, in an attempt to figure out who will be honest with him and who is just trying to kiss his ass. He wanted to work with the former, of course. And this is hinted…

Maybe, but accusing people you don’t know, accomplished very capable people where were very high achievers even at the time, of ‘forcing’ themselves to be servile is a worrying sign. That’s not what the I got from the article, and I find it hard to see how it could be reasonably interpreted that way. I’d want to be very, very sure of myself before saying that of someone, and I find it difficult to trust the judgement or motives of someone who expresses themselves like that casually.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#45

Post by joe_the_user »

graeme wrote: post #16
benwerd wrote: post #12

This is how I know I would suck in a company like this. Yeah, it's Steve Jobs - but I find the level of reverence on show in this piece to be a little hard to take. It's certainly revealing of the culture there at the time. > And when you can get the time for thoughtful reflection on your idea from a visionary like Steve — well, that’s a good day. Being humble is one thing, but forcing yourself into this kind of fawn…

There have been stories outside Apple of Steve Jobs giving incredibly good feedback in a variety of areas and people being glad to have it. Have you considered the possibility that: 1. Steve Jobs was a couple of standard deviations better at this than almost anyone 2. As such, people were glad to get feedback from him 3. Such ability is rare and hard to identify, and so trying to replicate that structure is nonethele…

What could "a couple standard deviations better" even mean in the context of evaluating a product?

I would still argue that Apple benefited tremendously from Jobs. How I would hypothesize the benefit came is that a product winds up being a sort-of "single thing", each part coming together to a single experience for the customer. It's a paradoxical situation because a technological device is produced by a series of experts in multiple fields and with so many people involved. In an average company, the unity of the experience tends to be lost in multiple bureaucratic exigencies.

Jobs was able to put together a single (fairly good) vision into a product by having an absolute dictatorship on over the creation process. Hyperbolic "couple of standard deviations" claims aren't necessary. Artistry still is often a matter of one person (or a very small number of people) conceiving a vision. So letting Jobs be the painter drawing with other people talents worked and was better than twenty hands at the paintbrush. But it had the problem that absolute authority can work out to being cultish and abusive. No sure if there's a solution here.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#46

Post by maxxxxx »

sjwright wrote: post #31
maxxxxx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he was very good. But from whatever I have read he was also a big jerk and could be very cruel to people.

I haven't read anything that suggests that Steve was cruel or a jerk for the sake of it.

He told Wozniak that they had made $500 on a sale but in reality it was 5000 and he kept the rest. He refused to recognize his daughter for along time. He refused to give stock options to a lot of very early employees. Wozniak then made a up for it.

He was a jerk. Especially the story about his daughter is plain evil. At some point you have to take responsibility for your actions.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#47

Post by CamperBob2 »

tw04 wrote: post #33
graeme wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been stories outside Apple of Steve Jobs giving incredibly good feedback in a variety of areas and people being glad to have it. Have you considered the possibility that: 1. Steve Jobs was a couple of standard deviations better at this than almost anyone 2. As such, people were glad to get feedback from him 3. Such ability is rare and hard to identify, and so trying to replicate that structure is nonethele…

Like insisting that notes look like a leather bound notebook? I'm confident he had good ideas. I'm also confident he had plenty of horrible ideas... Just like most intelligent humans.

Like insisting that notes look like a leather bound notebook?

Is this objectively worse than the current practice of removing or hiding every visual cue and affordance, leaving the user to guess what they're supposed to be doing?

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#48

Post by simonh »

misiti3780 wrote: post #24

im glad steve jobs did what he did, because i love my apple products as much as the next person, but everytime i read something like i realize there is no way i would have wanted to work for him even if i was "changing the world". life is simply too short.

I’ve watched ride for some very challenging demanding bosses. Two in particular were very smart, very capable and I learned a lot from them. They really brought the best out of me. I don’t think either were Steve Jobs calibre though, I’d have loved the chance to work with the guy.

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#49

Post by simonh »

maxxxxx wrote: post #14
qntty wrote: post #11

Anyone else annoyed by how deferential the author seems to be towards Jobs? Like surely after knowing him for a bit you'd get over that.

That seems to be the case with a lot of super charismatic leaders. Somehow these people can instill an extreme level of loyalty in people they meet. I don't want to compare Jobs to Hitler but when you read accounts from people who worked with Hitler they also had this sense of loyalty they couldn't overcome even while knowing that something was going wrong. Reagan may be another case.

Is it really impossible that someone is so good that they have earned and deserve that kind of loyalty?

Re: Stories of Steve Jobs in Safari Design Reviews (2014)

#50

Post by briandear »

thanatropism wrote: post #35
graeme wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been stories outside Apple of Steve Jobs giving incredibly good feedback in a variety of areas and people being glad to have it. Have you considered the possibility that: 1. Steve Jobs was a couple of standard deviations better at this than almost anyone 2. As such, people were glad to get feedback from him 3. Such ability is rare and hard to identify, and so trying to replicate that structure is nonethele…

> a couple of standard deviations better at this The crucial thing is that "this" in this case is product management. I'm fine with Jobs being the Caesar Augustus of product; what bothers me is when he starts being touted as the Christ of Business.

It worked though. Apple is the most valuable American company when measured by market cap. That didn’t accidentally happen.
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