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A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

nytimes.com

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Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#41

Post by privateSFacct »

mcv wrote: post #29

If the problem is that some people don't have a checking account, wouldn't it better to provide them with a cheap/free checking account? Even if all local shops accept cash, there's still tons of stuff you can't do without a checking account. On the topic of cash-free living: I only use cash for 3 things these days: to buy cheese, to pay my cleaning lady, and for my son's weekly allowance. Even the babysitters accept…

1) What is more secure - Venmo behind face ID on an apple phone or a checking account that literally anyone who has the numbers (which you give when you write a check) can take money out of, either by creating a versa check or doing an ACH debit so all your money disappears? You are a poor person - are you in a good position to see dispute resolution through?

2) Garnishment orders - can the state or other collectors garnish the checking account - so all your money disappears?

3) Will the bank allow the account to go negative, charging major fees, then blacklisting you with checksystems?

4) How controllable is saving money in these accounts? Some folks "save" money by not cashing their checks, then going to a check cashing place when they need the money.

Is it possible that a few % of population have medical debt, tax debt or other support orders that make using a normal checking account difficult? Past experience with fraud or being ripped off in a checking account?

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#42

Post by i_know_nothing »

foolfoolz wrote: post #24
i_know_nothing wrote: post #17

There is an important point to be discussed, that happens mainly in violent/poor countries: the frequent robbery (and it's consequences, like murders). A cashless economy will help solve this problem that affects everyone, especially the poor (paradoxically).

lol what? they going to make you open your phone. send your money away to them. then steal your phone.

It's quite different. We're talking about digital money, traceables transactions, improved security systems and so on.

I'm not saying that this will solve all problems, but will make things difficult for the thieves.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#43

Post by jk563 »

ganzuul wrote: post #38
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #18

A hipster-ish coffee shop I use has now gone cashless entirely - you cannot pay with cash. They must have hit a tipping point where the faff of cash drawers, trips to the bank and so on were not worth it.

Seem to remember something about 'legal tender'. Meant you had to accept cash payment. Of course you could refuse the customer on other grounds... Might not be a thing in the land of hipster-ish coffee shops.

> Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning, which relates to settling debts. It means that if you are in debt to someone then you can’t be sued for non-payment if you offer full payment of your debts in legal tender. [1]

[1] https://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-...

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#44

Post by yholio »

My bank locked me out of my account because they didn't approve of the way I was using it (crypto whitdrawal). All fully legal, from an exchange account I hold in my name. They now give me the runarround asking me to prove with paper documents that I own the money (interesting reversal to physical interaction). No calls, no case person I can talk to, just an impersonal postage address, and if I contact the branch all I get is 'you need to send the documents'. I did, more than two weeks ago, I dropped them in this very branch. Sorry, we can't help you because "an investigation is ongoing". So I am guilty and without money until proven otherwise.

Bottom line, cashless without a citizen right to unreversible banking is a form of bondage. It creates a paralel, private justice system, where you have no rights and your are judged by the value you have as a customer of the bank. A small customer is worthless and rightless.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#45

Post by IanCal »

GraemeL wrote: post #33
msh wrote: post #28

I can see the potential problems, but maybe a part of the solution would be to legally give the poor a right to a basic/free bank account.

Forcing people that are struggling to live day-to-day to use bank accounts just makes life worse for them. The first thing that happens when they're in debt is that their bank account gets frozen to pay the debts leaving them with nothing. Forcing all transactions to be electronic takes away the margins they live in. It's no longer possible for them to pay 1/2 their rent with a promise to pay the rest in a couple of…

This depends on the laws. In the UK there are requirements lenders and collectors must follow. You can get an agreement for a low repayment based on your required spending.

> It's no longer possible for them to pay 1/2 their rent with a promise to pay the rest in a couple of days when they get paid so that they can feed their children during that period.

Why not? You can transfer money whenever you want.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#46

Post by dsfyu404ed »

plgonzalezrx8 wrote: post #12

Instead of stopping business from doing what is best for them, why don't we help the poor by providing them with the tools necessary to take part on the economy? Is it possible to help those less fortunate to have access to the right tools?

Having cash as an available option throughout the economy greatly complicates a whole range of bad behaviors by private entities and governments.

Having a cash option available benefits society and just giving poor people electronic banking would not confer the same benifits.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#47

Post by gdhbcc »

schrodinger wrote: post #34
oh-kumudo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All your money is now just the number you see in your bank's app That is effectively the reality of any modern economy. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp Banks don't have the cash if everyone rushes to it and cashes out.

Putting your money in a bank _was_ your choice though; you could have kept it under your mattress.

It really isn't though.

Try paying 600€ worth of taxes in Portugal with cash and all you'll get is a fine because its banned.

Try to buy a macbook? You better have a bank account because its illegal to buy it using cash.

You owe 3000€ to a friend who lent it to you? Can't just give him the money 100€ bill at a time because that's illegal too.

Anyone who says "you're not forced to use banks" or "cash has value because you must pay your taxes with it" is either ignorant or intentionally misleading.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#48

Post by oh-kumudo »

schrodinger wrote: post #34
oh-kumudo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All your money is now just the number you see in your bank's app That is effectively the reality of any modern economy. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp Banks don't have the cash if everyone rushes to it and cashes out.

Putting your money in a bank _was_ your choice though; you could have kept it under your mattress.

Actually...I doubt that. At least in US, for the company I worked for, I don't think there is an option for me to be paid in cash in the first place. Even in reality people use check though, that still requires a bank account.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#49

Post by Broken_Hippo »

ganzuul wrote: post #38
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #18

A hipster-ish coffee shop I use has now gone cashless entirely - you cannot pay with cash. They must have hit a tipping point where the faff of cash drawers, trips to the bank and so on were not worth it.

Seem to remember something about 'legal tender'. Meant you had to accept cash payment. Of course you could refuse the customer on other grounds... Might not be a thing in the land of hipster-ish coffee shops.

I don't know the laws, but I know they don't have to accept it. It falls in the same lines as places not accepting payment in pennies or car dealerships refusing to sell a car to anyone paying the balance upfront. Weirdly, this doesn't seem like much of an issue when buying a house.

Re: A Cashless Economy Locks Out the Poor

#50

Post by cesarb »

vishnugupta wrote: post #36
CPLX wrote: post #22

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time. This is now before the city council in NYC, as the article points out, so the topic has come up in conversation…

I agree with your assertion, however: > that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time This can happen with cash too, as 99% of Indians found out to their utter dismay on 8 November 2016!! [1]. Granted that this is a Black Swan event [2] and the revocation was done publicly. However, as someone who lived through this and experienced it first hand, I stopped trusting cash from that day o…

> However, as someone who lived through this and experienced it first hand, I stopped trusting cash from that day onwards. I carry just enough with me to get by for couple of days.

I suppose you leave the rest in a bank account. That won't help if all bank accounts are frozen, as I lived through in the early 90s here in Brazil (we called it "Confisco da Poupança", see https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plano_Collor#Medidas_do_Plano_...).

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