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Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

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Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#41

Post by wowzap »

zackmorris wrote: post #28
rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

You should do some reading on pre-public education America, there actually wasn't much demand for it and private education served communities very well.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#42

Post by vkou »

wowzap wrote: post #41
zackmorris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

You should do some reading on pre-public education America, there actually wasn't much demand for it and private education served communities very well.

Exactly how well did private education serve black communities in America?

That demographic had a >50% illiteracy rate, in 1900. [1]

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#43

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

zackmorris wrote: post #28
rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

Which do you think is more likely to develop students into citizens capable of independent thought:

a) Sitting at a desk. Not allowed to talk unless called upon. Exactly following a schedule determined by authority figures.

b) Being free to move about the room. Able to choose your activity with your peers.A constructivist or "discovery" model, where students learn concepts from working with materials, rather than by direct instruction.

The first describes the typical public school. The second describes a Montessori school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education

Given the inertia of the system, it is unlikely that the public education system can be reformed from what it is. Why not support parents choosing a school based on what they consider best for their children as long as the schooling meets minimum standards? However, when politicians support this options, there are people that paint them as villains for "not supporting public education". Someone can support "public education" the concept of educating the public, and not support "public education" the system which is often driven by various special interest groups.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#44

Post by JediWing »

tareqak wrote: post #38

There was one idea that came to mind when I read The Second Half of Watergate Was Bigger, Worse, and Forgotten by the Public posted here 8 days ago [0][1]. The first part of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA) requires corporations to keep accurate financial records in order to not be able to hide bribes [2]. If a corporation can be compelled to be truthful in their financial records, then why can't a news organ…

Lots of risk to free speech, with little benefit. Who decides the truth? All the same problems with automatic/AI approaches to fact-checking are repeated but in the legal arena.

Also, I don't think it's really comparable to say "hey make sure what you say about the money receive is true", vs. "hey make sure everything you say is true"

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#45

Post by metamet »

seneca wrote: post #37
zackmorris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

> If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then?

The libertarian argument against public education (pushed by Cato, etc) is that public schooling is worse than private school systems, therefore we should be not spending public money on education, but rather shuffle those resources into vouchers and other ways to fund the private organizations offering private education.

They advocate for starving public education and giving those resources to private companies, which are able to selectively allow students through the guise of tuition. In addition to that, removing government standards allows for private education systems to teach "creationism vs evolutionism" as a "valid" scientific debate. Which is isn't. Same with climate change and all those other partisan talking points. Education shouldn't be wrapped up in a way that can be influenced by funders--do you think that the Kochs and DeVoses are not advocating for "education" that promotes their aspirations and biases? That's called indoctrination.

So yeah. Any libertarian who actively believes that we should get rid of public education in favor of private companies influenced by money needs to rethink their position. The free market isn't the panacea they claim it is.

There's very clearly work that needs to be done within the realm of public education. But giving the chalkboard over to people with deep pockets is a far cry from it.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#46

Post by dragonwriter »

metamet wrote: post #45
seneca wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

> If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? The libertarian argument against public education (pushed by Cato, etc) is that public schooling is worse than private school systems, therefore we should be not spending public money on education, but rather shuffle those resources into vouchers and other ways to fund the private organizations offering private education. They advocate for starving…

> therefore we should be not spending public money on education, but rather shuffle those resources into vouchers

That's still spending public money, just with less oversight.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#47

Post by bsder »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43
zackmorris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

Which do you think is more likely to develop students into citizens capable of independent thought: a) Sitting at a desk. Not allowed to talk unless called upon. Exactly following a schedule determined by authority figures. b) Being free to move about the room. Able to choose your activity with your peers.A constructivist or "discovery" model, where students learn concepts from working with materials, rather than by…

Allocate the same teacher/student ratio and randomize the students in a public school and at a private Montessori and get back to me with the data.

Most private schools do better only because they weed out the expensive problems and force them back to the public system. The moment you randomize the students, the private schools drop back to the mean (or, generally, worse).

I find this unfortunate, because education is in dire need of some real, evidence-based, advances. We have a lot of new data about achievement and learning.

However, putting it to practice requires money, time and a LOT of effort. And you will have to fight the parents, too.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#48

Post by harimau777 »

seneca wrote: post #37
zackmorris wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the reasons you gave: as a litmus test for whether a politician is a statesman or a shill, I look at whether he/she supports public education or not.

I'm reading this as you saying anyone who doesn't support public education is a shill. If that's the case, you believe that libertarians are shills, then? This strikes me as you essentially saying "anyone who doesn't think the way I do on this topic shouldn't be trusted".

I don't think libertarians are shills in that I believe they are genuine in wanting to improve society. However, in my experience their policies tend to be built on the assumption that the government is entirely restructured in line with libertarian principles. Since that is unlikely to ever happen, those policies that do get implemented tend to assist those who already hold power.

As an example, my understanding is that the libertarian argument for why deregulation will not result in people being hurt by defective products would be something like:

People would not be harmed because corporations would be held accountable for their actions.

Corporations would be held accountable because people can take them to court.

People can take corporations to court because they can hire lawyers.

People can afford to hire lawyers because restrictions on licensing and education that constrain supply would be removed.

So preventing harm from deregulation would also require significant changes to the licensing and education of lawyers.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#49

Post by dragonwriter »

bsder wrote: post #47
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which do you think is more likely to develop students into citizens capable of independent thought: a) Sitting at a desk. Not allowed to talk unless called upon. Exactly following a schedule determined by authority figures. b) Being free to move about the room. Able to choose your activity with your peers.A constructivist or "discovery" model, where students learn concepts from working with materials, rather than by…

Allocate the same teacher/student ratio and randomize the students in a public school and at a private Montessori and get back to me with the data. Most private schools do better only because they weed out the expensive problems and force them back to the public system. The moment you randomize the students, the private schools drop back to the mean (or, generally, worse). I find this unfortunate, because education i…

> Most private schools do better only because they weed out the expensive problems and force them back to the public system.

The single biggest factor is that private schools, as non-default choices, automatically filter for parental engagement in education, even before considering the filters they put in place in terms of admissions criteria.

Students with parents engaged in their education do better.

Re: Common-Knowledge Attacks on Democracy

#50

Post by lisper »

gambler wrote: post #35
rrggrr wrote: post #25

The only counter-measure that works against polluting the polity with influence operations is earnestly educating people to be critical consumers of information. Why? Because one cannot empower government to counter-message influence operations without risking an abuse of power. My son's middle school appears to be tackling this problem to some degree by teaching students to: (a) not accept 'facts' without multiple s…

A good and important counter-measure, but not the only one. People also need better tools for analyzing and making sense of large quantities of information, especially as it evolves over time. Right now, all we have are search engines and excel spreadsheets, and it's clearly not enough. It's amazing how prophetic Neil Postman's criticism of computers turned out to be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxgCoHv_aE Essen…

Wow, that is one of the best long talks I've ever seen. Do you know if there's a transcript out there somewhere?
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