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For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

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Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#41

Post by dragonwriter »

__s wrote: post #33
mvexel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"States' rights" is actually one of the valid answers to question 74 on the naturalization civics test. ("Name one problem that led to the Civil War.") Now I wonder what process led to these 100 questions, and their valid answers. (I just took the test a few weeks ago, and becoming a U.S. citizen on Monday.) The full list of questions and valid answers is here: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Office%2…

Libertarians might disagree with answers for Question 11

You don't have to be a libertarian (in fact, it rather helps not to be) to recognize that “capitalism” refers to the dominant economic system of the developed West in the mid-19th Century, which was largely abandoned because of the widespread misery it caused in favor of the modern mixed economy in the developed world by the mid-20th century.

OTOH, the test is of ability to parrot the mythology of the dominant political groups in the country.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#42

Post by FlyMoreRockets »

tropo wrote: post #38

Another obscure Thanksgiving fact: Thanksgiving is commonly known as a celebration of a good harvest, but the reason why the harvest was good is seldom remembered. Plymouth Colony was originally communal. Marx was far from the first to think that "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" might be a good idea. Such thinking dates back to Plato at least, and in 1620 the colony actually tried…

FTFY > After 2.5 years, with half the colony dead...

...the socialist natives took pity on the starving Europeans and helped their fellow humans. Good luck with the rest of your rewrite of history.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#43

Post by greglindahl »

oculusthrift wrote: post #28
mvexel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"States' rights" is actually one of the valid answers to question 74 on the naturalization civics test. ("Name one problem that led to the Civil War.") Now I wonder what process led to these 100 questions, and their valid answers. (I just took the test a few weeks ago, and becoming a U.S. citizen on Monday.) The full list of questions and valid answers is here: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Office%2…

yep. states rights to make their own laws about slavery superseding the national law

Yes, this is main way that States Rights affected the Civil War: northern states ignoring federal law and federal court rulings about returning escaped slaves.

I can see several folks in this very discussion who might be surprised by this bit of history.

Edit: so far two different people think I am mischaracterizing what Southern states said at the time about their state's rights. I wasn't talking about that at all. I was talking about how I (and many modern historians) think about Southern states' reaction to Dred Scott and how Northern states ignored it. Please respond to what I said, instead of something I did not say.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#44

Post by emilsedgh »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #37
wavefunction wrote: post #30

This is an interesting subject. The 4th of July is not celebrated in Utah as it is in other states: instead that same energy and celebration goes into Utah's "Pioneer Days." This divergence from the rest of the nation provides some insight into the history of Utah and the people who settled it, and their relationship to the greater United States. Personally, I don't think it reflects positively but that's just my opi…

More: The Mormons were intending to leave the United States and start their own country. When they came to Utah (1847), much of it was still Mexican territory. They celebrate the day that commemorates them trying to leave the US as hard as they celebrate the 4th of July. Note well: This does not make Utah Mormons less patriotic... just a bit historically schizophrenic.

As an Iranian Jewish-born atheist who grew up in Iran and now lives in the U.S, I celebrate Hannuklah, Nowrooz (Iranian new year), Rosh Hashanah, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and any other fun holiday you would throw at us.

I think we live in a world that nobody gives a fuck about reasons and true meanings behind things. Fuck history I wanna party!

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#45

Post by greglindahl »

snovv_crash wrote: post #16
callinyouin wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The states rights thing is pervasive. I was taught the same thing in a public school all the way up North in Michigan. (late 90s, early 2000s)

It was about states' rights, specifically states' to continue practicing slavery.

Federal law protected these rights, and the rights to retrieve fugitive slaves. The southern states objected to northern states ignoring Dred Scott, which was a federal court ruling.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#46

Post by Delmania »

greglindahl wrote: post #43
oculusthrift wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep. states rights to make their own laws about slavery superseding the national law

Yes, this is main way that States Rights affected the Civil War: northern states ignoring federal law and federal court rulings about returning escaped slaves. I can see several folks in this very discussion who might be surprised by this bit of history. Edit: so far two different people think I am mischaracterizing what Southern states said at the time about their state's rights. I wasn't talking about that at all.…

This is also wrong. The Civil War was about slavery. There's a speech in which a defining characteristic of the confederacy is slavery. Keep playing revisionist history.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#47

Post by paulddraper »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #36
paulddraper wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be more correct to say that there were slave states that didn't succeded from the USA. Absolutely. Succession (being part of issue of "states' rights") was a huge part of the Civil War. > The president couldn't free slaves within the USA by executive order Indeed; I pointed that fact out myself. There's no question that the man Abraham Lincoln was anti-slavery but could not himself end it. There's also no…

> The fact remains that as a whole the Union still had slaves, and that didn't change for the entirety of the Civil War. If you believe in rule of law, this makes complete sense. They had no way to outlaw slavery without an amendment. > My point is there's obviously things going on here other than just a war to end slavery, and it's important not to downplay that either. It is true that the USA would have held onto s…

> They had no way to outlaw slavery without an amendment.

Not true. States could outlaw slavery. Regardless, neither state laws nor federal constitutional amendment happened.

> But the South read the writing on the wall, it was going to be outlawed sooner or later

Not only slavery, but agriculture-hostile tariffs, state sovereignty, Southern political representation in general.

Given the events following the Civil War, it does seem they were on target.

> My white Vicksburg classmates called me a yankee...As long as I had that standard midwestern accent

Okay...I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this. I'm talking about biases in education according to Civil War geography.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#48

Post by greglindahl »

Delmania wrote: post #46
greglindahl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is main way that States Rights affected the Civil War: northern states ignoring federal law and federal court rulings about returning escaped slaves. I can see several folks in this very discussion who might be surprised by this bit of history. Edit: so far two different people think I am mischaracterizing what Southern states said at the time about their state's rights. I wasn't talking about that at all.…

This is also wrong. The Civil War was about slavery. There's a speech in which a defining characteristic of the confederacy is slavery. Keep playing revisionist history.

I think the Civil War was about slavery, but said nothing about that in my comment. Seems that your criticism is off target.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#49

Post by mwfunk »

greglindahl wrote: post #43
oculusthrift wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep. states rights to make their own laws about slavery superseding the national law

Yes, this is main way that States Rights affected the Civil War: northern states ignoring federal law and federal court rulings about returning escaped slaves. I can see several folks in this very discussion who might be surprised by this bit of history. Edit: so far two different people think I am mischaracterizing what Southern states said at the time about their state's rights. I wasn't talking about that at all.…

Thats not at all what the States’ Rights argument refers to, and you know that.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#50

Post by skybrian »

oculusthrift wrote: post #28
mvexel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"States' rights" is actually one of the valid answers to question 74 on the naturalization civics test. ("Name one problem that led to the Civil War.") Now I wonder what process led to these 100 questions, and their valid answers. (I just took the test a few weeks ago, and becoming a U.S. citizen on Monday.) The full list of questions and valid answers is here: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Office%2…

yep. states rights to make their own laws about slavery superseding the national law

States rights wasn't good enough for them. Before the Civil War, many people in the South wanted to expand slavery to more places including new US territories and Nicaragua [1].

If they hadn't been so eager to have their way nationally, it's possible the Civil War could have been avoided.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walker_(filibuster)

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