Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients • Hacker News Board

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#41

Post by majormajor » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #39

vtange wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a software engineer that went through architecture school and I think you're glorifying architects a bit here. The only reason why architects have a more gradual path as you describe is because there is a LOT of gatekeeping and feedback on your work is a LOT slower. To become an architect you have to ideally go through schooling at a specific set of schools and then after that you have years of internships where…

Agree. I also work in the building industry (Electrical Engineering - power distribution for buildings) and I love software because of the instant feedback loop. In software, you make a typo and you get an error immediately. You fix it and go on. In architecture, you make a typo and you hear about it 6 months later, and it's a $200,000 change order (exaggerating...somewhat).

> In software, you make a typo and you get an error immediately. You fix it and go on.

This level of thing is usually silly, ultimately-meaningless errors. (The rare exception being the metric-vs-imperial type things that literally blow up eventually.)

There are many other errors we make every day building software that lead to years or decades of tech debt. The thing we need to figure out is how to get better at making better up-front decisions on that. Being better at monitoring the long-term feedback produced by our designs, so that instead of saying "we should rewrite this in a new framework" we can say "we should restructure this doing X and Y to prevent these types of problems from coming back."

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#42

Post by booleandilemma » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 11:19 PM UTC

I hope one day they say the same thing about us programmers of the present time.

Hello from 2018 and sorry about JavaScript!

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#43

Post by Spooky23 » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 11:52 PM UTC

waivek wrote: post #4

As a software "engineer", I've always been envious of architects and the well-defined path to mastery that exists in their field. You start off as a lowly apprentice and only through years of study and practice can you progress. As a result, the best architects in the world are generally forty and above and there is a correlation between age and competence. There is no 22 year old rockstar architect. The bar of compe…

The employed architects I know are mostly miserable designing medical office buildings and similar crap, where design = shave a few hundred bucks off of the cost of every aspect of the project.

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#44

Post by Spooky23 » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 11:58 PM UTC

briga wrote: post #34

travisjungroth wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that for architecture is most structures are meant to be occupied, and being inside a heaped structure of softer rocks isn't very nice. I do wish that I got to see a structure meant to last millennia built in my lifetime. On that timescale, I _just_ missed Mount Rushmore.

Considering how many structures from thousands of years ago are still around, I'd be shocked if there weren't any 21st-century buildings standing thousands of years from now.

Thousands of years ago, the king did a levy for labor and demanded whatever he wanted.

Today, you need to build a building designed to depreciate in 30 years to maximize your taxes.

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#45

Post by Someone » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 12:07 AM UTC

briga wrote: post #34

travisjungroth wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that for architecture is most structures are meant to be occupied, and being inside a heaped structure of softer rocks isn't very nice. I do wish that I got to see a structure meant to last millennia built in my lifetime. On that timescale, I _just_ missed Mount Rushmore.

Considering how many structures from thousands of years ago are still around, I'd be shocked if there weren't any 21st-century buildings standing thousands of years from now.

Rebar makes buildings a lot stronger, but also has the unfortunate property of rusting. That makes it less strong and expands it, damaging other parts of the structure. It also is more or less everywhere.

Also, modern buildings often are designed for a given economical lifetime. If you order a structure that can be maintained for 50 years at $1M a year, that’s what you will get. You likely can keep it standing for centuries, but at ever-increasing maintenance costs.

On the other hand, we are building so much that, statistically, something will be standing thousands of years from now.

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#46

Post by abcanthur » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 12:53 AM UTC

goatlover wrote: post #5

waivek wrote: post #4

As a software "engineer", I've always been envious of architects and the well-defined path to mastery that exists in their field. You start off as a lowly apprentice and only through years of study and practice can you progress. As a result, the best architects in the world are generally forty and above and there is a correlation between age and competence. There is no 22 year old rockstar architect. The bar of compe…

What, no architectural bootcamps? No shiny new frameworks? No this will disrupt everything? No hype cycle?

Re: bootcamps, there are several non-credit summer programs offered by major architecture programs (Harvard, Berkeley,..) that help prospective students expose themselves to architecture school and more importantly, help them develop a portfolio to apply to the full program. These programs are proportionally just as (very) expensive and (extremely) time consuming. A not small number of degree seeking students come through that track.

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#47

Post by starpilot » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:04 AM UTC

vtange wrote: post #16

waivek wrote: post #4

As a software "engineer", I've always been envious of architects and the well-defined path to mastery that exists in their field. You start off as a lowly apprentice and only through years of study and practice can you progress. As a result, the best architects in the world are generally forty and above and there is a correlation between age and competence. There is no 22 year old rockstar architect. The bar of compe…

I'm a software engineer that went through architecture school and I think you're glorifying architects a bit here. The only reason why architects have a more gradual path as you describe is because there is a LOT of gatekeeping and feedback on your work is a LOT slower. To become an architect you have to ideally go through schooling at a specific set of schools and then after that you have years of internships where…

> The vast majority of architects just work on run-of-the-mill housing (not unlike CRUD apps) where the combination of building codes, the client's budget, zoning and other requirements often prevents you from doing anything too flashy.

In talking with civil, naval, and mechanical engineers that I know, this type of "crank out another one similar to the last one" work seems to be the norm. I used to be aerospace and thought it was just my company. New part designed, do the same type of analysis and write it up and send it to the FAA, they rubber stamp it. But it's remarkably similar in many fields. The civil guy I know says for every new road/bridge they review it's just the same shit over and over. It's just a white collar assembly line everywhere. It reduces errors and is efficient as a division of labor, but it's not very fun.

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#48

Post by theoh » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

abecedarius wrote: post #29

waivek wrote: post #4

As a software "engineer", I've always been envious of architects and the well-defined path to mastery that exists in their field. You start off as a lowly apprentice and only through years of study and practice can you progress. As a result, the best architects in the world are generally forty and above and there is a correlation between age and competence. There is no 22 year old rockstar architect. The bar of compe…

I've read a bit of Christopher Alexander, and at least by his view the profession of architecture was in a fallen state conducive to soulless work. I don't know myself, except I've been to Barcelona which must've been doing something different.

I'm pretty sure Alexander would see the same problems in most Barcelona architecture as he does in other cities. The design in Barcelona is very good by the standards of European cities (and exceptional relative to a lot of places) but the paradigm for architectural practice is still, broadly speaking, the modernist one. Alexander wants to go back to preindustrial vernacular building practices.

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#49

Post by theoh » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 1:42 AM UTC

vtange wrote: post #16

waivek wrote: post #4

As a software "engineer", I've always been envious of architects and the well-defined path to mastery that exists in their field. You start off as a lowly apprentice and only through years of study and practice can you progress. As a result, the best architects in the world are generally forty and above and there is a correlation between age and competence. There is no 22 year old rockstar architect. The bar of compe…

I'm a software engineer that went through architecture school and I think you're glorifying architects a bit here. The only reason why architects have a more gradual path as you describe is because there is a LOT of gatekeeping and feedback on your work is a LOT slower. To become an architect you have to ideally go through schooling at a specific set of schools and then after that you have years of internships where…

> The great thing about software really is the fact you have the independence and ability to build and publicize your own stuff whereas in all the other formal professions you can't without oversight.

By the same token, software isn't really a professionalized activity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering_professio...

Re: Architects have a lot to learn from the sound engineering of the ancients

#50

Post by natmaka » Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:04 AM UTC

Isn't part of this talent gained thru motivation, in turn judged necessary as they had "skin in the game"? https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18558/were-roma...