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China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

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Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#41

Post by zaru27 »

spongepoc wrote: post #31
zaru27 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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We need to weaponise our education system against them. Full tuition for humanities; total restriction of access to science and technology programs. This will cultivate liberalism, democracy and dissent amongst Chinese students which would destabalize their regime, while depriving them of the technical knowledge they crave in their drive to overthrow the West. We have been very naive to allow so much access to our in…

I definitely agree with what you're suggesting would be a great idea, but I'm not sure something like that could happen in the near future. I get the impression that the Democrats and their media have not entirely endorsed the trade war and anti-Sino policies as a means to point out Trump's incompetence and divisiveness, but that seems to be shifting. Washington probably doesn't want to escalate too much at any given time, as well, but meter it out slowly. I'm hoping that they do not buckle.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#42

Post by izacus »

Mofleaker wrote: post #5
wnkrshm wrote: post #2

If I recall correctly, DARPA regularly hosts challenges where university teams try to solve problems that clearly have military applications. I know this can be seen as whataboutism but I feel the Western world might have gotten desensitized to its own activities in the sector, while looking warily at possible geopolitical competitors.

I feel that whataboutism is a term that gets abused a lot in threads about China. Pointing out that the US does the very same doesn't necessarily discredit or diminish the problem with China's actions. If anything it shows we should be worried about these things on a global scale.

> Pointing out that the US does the very same doesn't necessarily discredit or diminish the problem with China's actions. If anything it shows we should be worried about these things on a global scale.

I think the main issue is that those actions aren't written about or criticised when done by the western powers. Hence why these article seems so hypocritical - they try to paint actions accepted and normal in western world as somehow evil when done by the eastern part. It doesn't mean they're not bad - but it does seem like the articles are just propaganda and not an objective look.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#43

Post by beginningguava »

spongepoc wrote: post #31
zaru27 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We need to weaponise our education system against them. Full tuition for humanities; total restriction of access to science and technology programs. This will cultivate liberalism, democracy and dissent amongst Chinese students which would destabalize their regime, while depriving them of the technical knowledge they crave in their drive to overthrow the West. We have been very naive to allow so much access to our in…

doubtful, the progressives that humanities departments turn out are the most authoritarian people I know. Many have a quasi-religious propensity to classify anyone who disagrees with them as evil and irredeemable. They'd fit in perfectly with the CPC

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#44

Post by lern_too_spel »

beginningguava wrote: post #6
Communitivity wrote: post #3

The US does this with the DARPA Grand Challenge ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge ). I suspect other countries may be doing this through sponsoring/watching teams from their nation entering international competitions such as the Tech First Challenge ( http://business-review.eu/tag/first-tech-challenge-russia-op... ).

You don't see a difference between giving prize money to university teams vs recruiting children under the age of 18 and then putting them through a 4 year program where they are expected to enter AI research for military purposes and the candidates are explicitly vetted for loyalty to the government before entrance?

Who do you think sponsors high school math competitions in the US? It's the NSA. They use it for making decisions on scholarships that require working at the NSA during and after college. In order to work there (and thus to accept the scholarship), you must get security clearance, which includes being vetted for loyalty.

The existence of these types of programs isn't troubling. It's the belligerent geopolitics of the state that are troubling.

http://www.usamts.org

https://www.intelligencecareers.gov/icstudents.html

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#45

Post by yters »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #35
yters wrote: post #32

You think other nations actually buy into peaceful globalism? Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to be the next global superpower and rule the world, and only play nice-nice insofar as it furthers this goal. Global trade certainly does not guarantee global peace. We had global trade before WW1 and WW2, and it did nothing to stop the most horrific wars ever seen in history.

"Everyone" not remotely everyone.

No one wants to get killed or suffer during war, but everyone wants to be the boss.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#46

Post by yters »

stretchwithme wrote: post #37
yters wrote: post #32

You think other nations actually buy into peaceful globalism? Everyone is just looking for an opportunity to be the next global superpower and rule the world, and only play nice-nice insofar as it furthers this goal. Global trade certainly does not guarantee global peace. We had global trade before WW1 and WW2, and it did nothing to stop the most horrific wars ever seen in history.

Every tyrant and would-be tyrant.

I'd say that's pretty much everyone.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#47

Post by zaru27 »

beginningguava wrote: post #39
zaru27 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The solution isn't a ban, it's requiring they become US citizens after they get their degree. Right now we educate them and send them right back. Meanwhile we let in 50,000+ uneducated illegal immigrants a month. It's moronic to allow top tier talent to go back to China rather than keeping them here to benefit the US

I think the situation is much more complicated than that. Who do they have allegiance to? What are their ideals, inculcated from their family and society from a young age, even if they appear to you as professional and unbiased? If foreign policy becomes more hostile to China, which it has been and likely will become more so, where will the people who we've employed return to and aid instead of us?

Chinese students have clearly had access to our job and research markets, but that has been changing with sinophobia, along with rising economic opportunity in China coupled with concerted efforts by the Chinese government to repatriate those educated here.

So, I am taking that information into account when I say the situation reduces to the conclusion that the pragmatic solution is to drastically reduce the amount studying here.

I don't think a ban would be a good idea, either. Probably the best outcome, in my estimation, would be for a bipartisan big brother to tap university heads on the shoulder and tell them to cut the inflow dramatically.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#48

Post by thrower123 »

vslira wrote: post #7

Killer bots will be treated just like nukes: world powers will justify their investment in the technology by saying that the other side is also doing it, and when it becomes clear that there are only two or three powerful countries that can wield the technology, the "international treaties" will come barring everybody else from developing it. I'm not saying that everyone should have nukes, I'm saying the EU, US, Chin…

Startup and capital costs for a nuke program are considerably higher, and it is a lot harder to hide that you are building the massive facilities needed to process the raw materials and manufacture nuclear weapons. Not to mention needing to come up with a viable delivery system.

AI is nothing like that. It's just software. Once it is out there, it is going to be copied, and the resources involved are minuscule.

International arms control treaties haven't historically been worth the paper they are printed on, so there are probably a great many things that would be more worthwhile to direct energies towards.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#49

Post by _ptgt »

zaru27 wrote: post #29
natch wrote: post #19

China has cultivated in its people a very troubling mental complex centered on national pride and driven by the Century of Humiliation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation To say they are fervent about righting the wrongs and perceived wrongs of the past is an understatement. It's pretty much a driving force of life with many people. It's a powerful dynamic. And it's one that's held close to the ches…

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My wife was born and raised in China. I love her dearly, but my anecdata in large part concurs with yours.

I should mention she's certainly conflicted and aware of some inconsistencies in a good number of her beliefs, even if she generally defends them or changes the topic when they come up.

Though I'm not sure I agree with your suggested course of action.

Re: China's brightest children are being recruited to weaponize AI

#50

Post by baobrain »

jl6 wrote: post #26
natch wrote: post #19

China has cultivated in its people a very troubling mental complex centered on national pride and driven by the Century of Humiliation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation To say they are fervent about righting the wrongs and perceived wrongs of the past is an understatement. It's pretty much a driving force of life with many people. It's a powerful dynamic. And it's one that's held close to the ches…

There must be actual Chinese people here on HN. Can any weigh in on the reality of this? It’s a heavy charge to make against an entire population.

I've been through 3-8th grade education in Chengdu at a top 100 school. The rest of my education was in the US, so I may be biased in one way or the other.

From my perspective, I didn't really see it that way. Like any country, the history curriculum focuses on China's history, focusing primarily on ancient history (pre-Qing dynasty) for 3 semesters with one semester of modern Chinese history (Qing to present). While there certainly was a nationalistic tendency in many topics I would regard the information as historically accurate (as compared to courses about east Asian history here in the US). And in reality, my many friends in China with whom I've maintained contact over the years do not have this sort of mentality and are against censorship and much of the nationalistic messaging.

Another interesting note that people here have no knowledge of is professors in China are often times anti-CCP. Many professors take this to the extreme and in papers will often just give a bad grade if it mentions any good policy by the CCP.

On a semi-related note, the comments many make here on HN about China make me extremely uncomfortable. Not because they touch on sensitive topics but because they smear an entire population of people as liars, thieves, and mindless followers. Replace the word "China" and "Chinese" with "Italy" and "Italian" in many comments and they could have been written back in the Ellis Island days.

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