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It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

drewdevault.com

41–50 of 147 posts

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#41

I agree that if you've labeled your software incorrectly as open source and you've been corrected, it should be re-labeled and the problem shouldn't be ignored. I will say, though, that personally I feel "free" software has a labelling problem. I'm not heavily engaged in the open-source movement, and a lot of the terms and wording and licensing confuses me to the point where I don't want to use it because I'm not sur…

If you want to provide the source to your software, you put the code on the Internet and you're done.

You don't need to even choose a licence. That only comes in to play if you concern yourself with downstream users that care about licensing.

It really only becomes complicated when you want to release it and _also_ monetise it or restrict its use.

Licenses exist because of how this is ultimately at odds with how software actually works - it's basically legal DRM.

(I think licensing has valid uses in the current environment, but it's worth keeping in mind how absurd it is as a concept, it's basically a massive hack).

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#42
post #4

If you don't like software with these new style licenses, then don't use software with these new style licenses. Explain what it is that apparently so deeply violates your right to exist, but puritanical screaming and finger-pointing black & white contrasts never really convinces people of anything. All these rants are lame. The best comment I've heard so far w.r.t. CC is how it complicates acquisition of software by…

His problem with them is in the title of the post. If you want to do something that is non-free, don't call it open source or free software, both words have accepted definitions, by osi and fsf/gnu respectively. Your reply is entirely off-topic.

“Apache+Commons Clause” does imo not pretend that it is free/open-source. It's a free/open-source license combined with a restriction. I think this is or should be plain for everybody who reads the license.

In a way I can accept that 'Commons' is being used as a restriction in order to restrict monetary profit. With land, air and especially water there are also restriction in place. E.g. there is much critic if a multinational comes and bottles the water and (in some places) impairs local usage. Rules are then necessary.

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are brownies, but they happen to contain a bit of horse shit. Not a lot, it's just like a tiny sprinkling on top, but they are definitely still brownies! You can't make a substantive change to a license and pretend it's a small deal. You can't hijack core tenants of a license, and then just put a little disclaimer at the bottom. "Buy one get one half off! *The one half off is actually just a plastic model and d…

I won't address your analogy since I think it's obviously quite different. Ultimately, people want to keep their code open, develop in the open, bring in contributors, make it easy to adopt and audit their code, etc. They also want to eat and have a home. The extreme hostility I've seen over the years to every OSS project that tries some new way of monetizing is just absurd and damaging to the concept. > "Hey, you ca…

So, here's the key text of the Commons Clause:

Without limiting other conditions in the License, the grant of rights under the License will not include, and the License does not grant to you, the right to Sell the Software.

> Ultimately, people want to keep their code open, develop in the open, bring in contributors, make it easy to adopt and audit their code, etc.

The Commons Clause doesn't really change any of that from the base license. It says so explicitly - "Without limiting other conditions..."

> They also want to eat and have a home.

This is the very thing that the Commons Clause tries to prohibit: "the License does not grant to you, the right to Sell the Software."

In other words, it's a way for the maintainers of a project to say that they get to sell the software, but nobody else does.

Which, hey, I develop proprietary software for a living, I'm fine with doing that in the general case. What I don't like is trying to mix that kind of restriction into an open source license. Because then what you're saying is, you want other people to contribute code, and you want to be able to benefit financially from those contributions, but you expect it to be a one-way street. There's a basic principle of fairness at play there.

If you want to do that kind of thing, I'd say it's much preferable to go with something more like the oldschool "dual GPL/commercial licensing" approach. Or, if it fits your needs better, something like one of the non-OSI Microsoft Shared Source licenses.

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#44
post #39

This post seemed aggressive and vague to me. I'm not even sure what problem the author has with these licenses. I _think_ the issue is confusing naming - which seems pretty solvable - and not a fundamental problem with "dual licensing" / "source available" / "commons clause" software? People can develop software out in the open and say "use it as it is, for free!", "use it as part of a new product, for free!", but al…

https://commonsclause.com/

>People can develop software out in the open and say "use it as it is, for free!", "use it as part of a new product, for free!", but also say "please do not sell this software as it is" and "please do not make and sell an almost-identical product using this software".

The Common Clause isn't about preventing shovelware, it's specifically about restricting the user's freedom to sell any derivative work--it straight up says in the 1st FAQ that it's to transition existing actually FOSS projects to non-libre software.

Also that's just the way SirCmpwn writes!

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but why does "free software" only apply to some licenses with restrictions? why are the restrictions that the GPL or AGPL puts on you okay to still be called "free", but Apache 2 + Common Clause has restrictions that aren't "free"?

For the term "Open Source", there is a list of criteria which from all I can tell goes back to pretty close to the creators of the term, and which is quite widely accepted: https://opensource.org/osd

I get that, but I'm asking why we adhere to that? I'd be more than happy to change the definition of "Open Source" if it means that more companies will participate, as doing so won't entirely rob them of most of their income from that product.

In fact, I'd consider it a significant improvement over the concept of "open core" that has been becoming more and more popular, where the core 80% of a product is open source, but the last 20% isn't, making it so you need to either pay or build that last 20% yourself to use the software.

Contrast with an "open source, except you can't sell it", you'd be more likely to get the whole 100% of the software "open sourced" (as in all other aspects of open-source code, without the ability to sell it), people not using it for profit can benefit immensely, and those who are using it for profit can license it like anything else.

Ostracizing the latter because they don't adhere to strict definitions seems wrong, especially when pretty much all of the alternatives (aside from going full GPL/AGPL) means there is less code out there usable by people, and less users will have the ability to see the code they use.

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#46
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His problem with them is in the title of the post. If you want to do something that is non-free, don't call it open source or free software, both words have accepted definitions, by osi and fsf/gnu respectively. Your reply is entirely off-topic.

“Apache+Commons Clause” does imo not pretend that it is free/open-source. It's a free/open-source license combined with a restriction. I think this is or should be plain for everybody who reads the license. In a way I can accept that 'Commons' is being used as a restriction in order to restrict monetary profit. With land, air and especially water there are also restriction in place. E.g. there is much critic if a mul…

The Apache Foundation says it has gotten confused questions about this almost immediately and has asked that this combination not be used (it's own "brand guidelines" say to only use combinations like this if users are granted additional rights, not if the user is restricted further)

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#48

I believe I'm in the minority when I say this. Ultimately, if I choose to, I will license my project however I want. If I want to restrict others from selling my product I will do so. Calling it Apache 2.0 + Common Clause makes sense, it's an extremely well known license and it's easier to start there and then say "but with some restrictions". That said, I do see the issue that people may use this software and not un…

> Ultimately, if I choose to, I will license my project however I want. If I want to restrict others from selling my product I will do so.

I don't think you're in the minority here.

> Calling it Apache 2.0 + Common Clause makes sense, it's an extremely well known license and it's easier to start there and then say "but with some restrictions".

You may be in the minority here. Marketing what you're selling under the name of something else with the deliberate goal of tricking and confusing your users is scummy.

You are free to make a bicycle sharing app, and you are free to refer to it colloquially as "Uber for bikes", but when you start putting your app in the app store under "Uber+ Bikes" then you're heading into scam territory.

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#49
Creative commons licenses have had optional NC (no commercial use) and ND (no derivative works) clauses for years. FOSS purists don't like them, but a lot of artists depend on those clauses to make a living.

There is no widely recognized equivalent of a CC-BY-NC license for software, partly because neither the FSF nor OSI will recognize such a license. Maybe someone needs to write one nonetheless. And stick it on their software clearly and unambiguously. They obviously think that OSI-approved licenses don't suit their needs. Then don't use them, period.

The author is right that "Apache 2.0 + Commons Clause" is potentially misleading. We've seen "GPLv2 + Classpath Exception" before, but that was to give additional permissions, not a restriction. Similarly, most examples of dual-licensing don't add restrictions to either license. Adding a restriction is something new. It's understandable that people find it disingenuous.

Just write a new license already and call it Redis Labs Open License (RLOL) or something like that.

I'm sure antirez would be rather unhappy if you forked Redis, deleted a bunch of features, and called it Redis Lite. At least have the courtesy of changing the name if you're going to use an incompatible license.

Re: It's not okay to pretend your software is open source

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are brownies, but they happen to contain a bit of horse shit. Not a lot, it's just like a tiny sprinkling on top, but they are definitely still brownies! You can't make a substantive change to a license and pretend it's a small deal. You can't hijack core tenants of a license, and then just put a little disclaimer at the bottom. "Buy one get one half off! *The one half off is actually just a plastic model and d…

>These are brownies, but they happen to contain a bit of horse shit. Not a lot, it's just like a tiny sprinkling on top, but they are definitely still brownies! Don't buy them, don't eat them. >"Hey, you can use this for free if you don't make any money, but we want 10% if you're using this in a paid product" -> See? Done, easy, nobody upset. Don't pretend "Hey, this is open source, except it isn't, and please give m…

> Creative Commons simply restricts selling the software itself.

CC licenses that are not NC absolutely allow third parties to sell the content. They just don't allow them to hinder others from sharing it for free.

As for CC licenses with NC, those do not comply with the Open Source definition either.

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