Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#41

Post by jakelazaroff » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #13

olliej wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is the "it costs more to do the right thing" is a bad argument. If you have a serial harasser, who is just paid off to leave quietly, then you just ensure that he gets to go off and do the same thing again. And be richer. How about instead of giving him $90 million, you give that to his victims in exchange for them not making claims against him? The result is approximately the same, but at least you'…

>If you have a serial harasser Except Rubin was never accused of being a serial harasser that I've seen. He was terminated for having sexual relations with a subordinate.

He was not "terminated for having sexual relations with a subordinate". From the article:

> Google gave Rubin a reported $90 million exit package in 2014, following an investigation into an allegation that he had coerced another employee to perform oral sex on him. That investigation reportedly found that allegation to be credible.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#42

Post by crwalker » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #22

rayvy wrote: post #3

Someone with more info please correct me: But from what I read it sounds as if Google had to pay him the $90MM+, else be sued by him right? Because if they didn't pay him, he'd sue, then they [Google] would have to prove that he [Rubin] acted maliciously (or whatever), which would've been hard (if not impossible) to do, given that the accuser said they were coerced (not forced). So it seems as if Google's hands were…

A lot of the popular unrest facing both corporations & governments today is people learning that conflict gets results . The logic goes that "Well, Andy Rubin managed to exercise his threat to sue to get a $90M severance package, and he doesn't even work for the company anymore. We do work for the company, so we are going to exercise our power as employees to put pressure on the company to not do this again , so that…

Yes.

Crypto is a compelling simulacrum of classical liberalism (free individuals engaging in trade and limited governments using precise laws to protect the commons).

This time we are trusting machines and mathematics to preserve individual rights rather than culture.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#43

Post by inetknght » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #22

rayvy wrote: post #3

Someone with more info please correct me: But from what I read it sounds as if Google had to pay him the $90MM+, else be sued by him right? Because if they didn't pay him, he'd sue, then they [Google] would have to prove that he [Rubin] acted maliciously (or whatever), which would've been hard (if not impossible) to do, given that the accuser said they were coerced (not forced). So it seems as if Google's hands were…

A lot of the popular unrest facing both corporations & governments today is people learning that conflict gets results . The logic goes that "Well, Andy Rubin managed to exercise his threat to sue to get a $90M severance package, and he doesn't even work for the company anymore. We do work for the company, so we are going to exercise our power as employees to put pressure on the company to not do this again , so that…

> The end result probably looks like us burning most of the modern world to the ground, literally

The end does not justify the means. So what good is a society built on prejudice, harassment, and corruption?

If you can sweep controversy under the rug until such time that it's convenient then good luck ever getting change to occur for the better.

> by getting rid of the organization and making any people behind it anonymous & fungible, you can continue to organize economic activity without painting a target on your face.

Making it anonymous & fungible is only necessary if you're unable or unwilling to stand up for your actions. If you're unwilling to stand up for what's right or are doing something you know is unethical, then what right do you have to the proceeds from your actions?

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#44

Post by bedhead » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

rayvy wrote: post #3

Someone with more info please correct me: But from what I read it sounds as if Google had to pay him the $90MM+, else be sued by him right? Because if they didn't pay him, he'd sue, then they [Google] would have to prove that he [Rubin] acted maliciously (or whatever), which would've been hard (if not impossible) to do, given that the accuser said they were coerced (not forced). So it seems as if Google's hands were…

They could've claimed he broke his employment contract (I'm assuming he had a contract - he almost certainly did) which presumably had some "bad boy" clause in it, thus firing him for cause and not paying him anything. But that is messy, and costly, and the outcome is uncertain, and while Rubin sounds like a scumbag here, this also wasn't the most egregious behavior out there. Bottom line, Google was screwed the moment they signed that employment contract...those things are written incredibly favorably for the employee.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#45

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

filmgirlcw wrote: post #30

manfredo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this wasn't swept under the rug. The alleged harasser was fired. Google took steps to remove the alleged harasser. Keeping the details private is standard practice and is usually something all the parties involved want. From what I'm reading, Google paid Rubin the amount he was entitled to in his contract. Some people point out that Google could have paid him next to nothing for firing him with cause - but Rubin…

But it was swept under the rug. He got a splashy send-off and a thanks for his service. At the very least, that seems over the top. The reasons for his ouster weren't disclosed. I would be curious if Essential's investors (Redpoint, Altimeter, Amazon Alexa Fund) were aware of why Rubin left Google. Moreover, this is a pattern at Google. Amit Singhal[1] was fired (also with a send-off and goodbye party and settled out…

> He then landed as SVP of engineering at Uber, where he was forced to resign because he hadn't disclosed the prior HR complaint at Google. Now, obviously, the lack of disclosure is what did him in -- but why did Google not tell Uber that he was asked to leave during his background check?

Likely, because his contract (executives are almost never at-will employees) included a mutual non-disparagement clause, which literally prevents either party from ever saying anything negative about the other.

> No, I do not believe for a second that Google settled to "protect" the victim

No, they did it to protect themselves. The fact that the route to Rubin winning would—as it always is in harassment cases—been destroying the victim further was probably incidental to Google, but no less true for that.

> The climate of 2018 makes me believe that was a fundamental mistake and the company should have fought back to not pay money that a labor attorney could argue was not owed.

I'm not sure even in 2018 it would look better for Google to have fought, lost, and left the accuser as collateral damage. Oh, it would be better optics if they fought and won without the victim's life being further destroyed, but whether that actually was the rational expectation at the time seems far from clear.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#46

Post by jakelazaroff » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #40

filmgirlcw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it was swept under the rug. He got a splashy send-off and a thanks for his service. At the very least, that seems over the top. The reasons for his ouster weren't disclosed. I would be curious if Essential's investors (Redpoint, Altimeter, Amazon Alexa Fund) were aware of why Rubin left Google. Moreover, this is a pattern at Google. Amit Singhal[1] was fired (also with a send-off and goodbye party and settled out…

To sweep something under the rug means to ignore it and not deal with it. Google did deal with it, so it's incorrect to say that the accusation was swept under the rug. Sure, you may be displeased at how they handled it but there's no denial of the fact that they did take the accusations seriously and fired a high level exec. You're ignoring the damage cause by the optics of such a lawsuit. Google being known as the…

GP isn't ignoring the optics of the situation, they're just asserting that being perceived as a company that paid a sexual predator almost one hundred million dollars to avoid dealing with a sexual assault claim is worse than the scenario you described.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#47

Post by filmgirlcw » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:50 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #32

azhenley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are two very different things. The cost of changing companies (especially if you are at Google) is fairly low (and often comes with a salary increase). The cost of changing citizenship could be exorbitant. People claim that if you want change in a country, you vote. If you don't believe in a company's values, you join another. Tech employees in this economy do have a lot of power. I think that is a more…

Exactly. Every single engineer at Google could get hired almost anywhere else. And many, who start their own projects could build those things outside Google as startups as well. (One of my favorite services was created by a Xoogler's startup.) In addition to that, while a walk out does not "move the needle" for executives or investors in any significant sense, if any even statistically significant number of engineer…

I don't know what the demands are -- I would hope they were transparency and accountability going forward. I do agree that a walkout without clear demands is meaningless -- except that it can embarrass senior management and that is sometimes the goal.

But beyond embarrassment, what these types of walkouts do is signal to management that discontent is brewing and that employees are willing to fight back and stand-up. And as people are arguing upthread, tech workers have a certain amount of power in deciding where they work. Recruiting is competitive as it is -- it certainly doesn't make it any easier if you have employees walking out en mass because of policies that protected senior executives.

Do walkouts work without mass buy-in, no -- not usually. The bad publicity/embarrassment factor could force some corporations to make changes, but just as many won't care.

This is why unions are typically successful with threats of work stoppage, and also why the hardest part of unionizing is getting enough employees to sign cards (not to mention fighting against the mistruths management usually puts out about the union itself).

I've never walked-out, but in my last job (which was union (WGA-E), we did very seriously consider a work stoppage because of changes that undermined our editorial independence, Even then, the walk-out is the last-resort, but to management's credit, once it was clear that we were willing to walk out, our demand (written indemnity protecting us from personal lawsuits based on things we wrote for the publication -- this is almost always provided by major news organizations but isn't always in writing. The circumstances of our company and the reason why we now had new ownership made it crucial that we get written indemnity and not merely a verbal promise that if sued, the company would pay legal bills if we were named personally) was met.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#48

Post by incredalus33 » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

As a side note: Microsoft will do AI work for the military: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/10/26/technol...

And Amazon will host the Pentagon cloud, and no one really cares, employees aren't derailing things and they sure aren't protesting.

Meanwhile at Google there is one employee driven mess after another, they leak everything to the press, and have no regard for company image or reputation, maybe Google should just show the door to those threatening to quit and start incorporating these lessons into their hiring process.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#49

Post by Jedi72 » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

crwalker wrote: post #42

nostrademons wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the popular unrest facing both corporations & governments today is people learning that conflict gets results . The logic goes that "Well, Andy Rubin managed to exercise his threat to sue to get a $90M severance package, and he doesn't even work for the company anymore. We do work for the company, so we are going to exercise our power as employees to put pressure on the company to not do this again , so that…

Yes. Crypto is a compelling simulacrum of classical liberalism (free individuals engaging in trade and limited governments using precise laws to protect the commons). This time we are trusting machines and mathematics to preserve individual rights rather than culture.

When you put it that way it actually seems like a good idea.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#50

Post by minitel » Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #43

nostrademons wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the popular unrest facing both corporations & governments today is people learning that conflict gets results . The logic goes that "Well, Andy Rubin managed to exercise his threat to sue to get a $90M severance package, and he doesn't even work for the company anymore. We do work for the company, so we are going to exercise our power as employees to put pressure on the company to not do this again , so that…

> The end result probably looks like us burning most of the modern world to the ground, literally The end does not justify the means. So what good is a society built on prejudice, harassment, and corruption? If you can sweep controversy under the rug until such time that it's convenient then good luck ever getting change to occur for the better. > by getting rid of the organization and making any people behind it ano…

> The end does not justify the means. So what good is a society built on prejudice, harassment, and corruption?

Spoken like someone who was raised in a culture where airing grievances led to getting what you wanted most of the time.

I mean, it's not illogical. There's a reason why the activist archetype is so respected in our society. It gets results!

But the outlook that fuels activists to push things things until they win: "I'd rather burn everything to the ground than not get what I want" is also an incredibly short sighted and selfish way to look at things.

This is the human condition I guess. We take things for granted. Like the stability we've grown up in, so much that we're willing to sacrifice our inheritance [a stable and mostly fair society] chasing windmills.

Luckily we've amassed so much wealth and institutional inertia that I think it'll be a while before it all comes tumbling down.