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A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

41–50 of 516 posts

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#41

> There is a looming issue Ms. Stecher sees in the future: Her husband, who is 39, loves video games and thinks they can be educational and entertaining. She does not. I'm still peeved so many people hate video games categorically. Age of Empires & Civilization got me into history as a kid and I checked out dozens of books as a result. Plus, the reason I ended up wanting to learn more about computers was to make game…

Yes, RTS train certain skills and educate in general. Yes, some other games and whole genres do that. And still all video games cause non-linear, lets say "addiction", to them. They increase tendency to procrastinate. Especially after significant play time over lifetime, when those same educational aspects are a justification to continue procrastinating playing them. I know this from experience and it is very hard and feels like increasingly harder to stop or limit it.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#42
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to your point, I got into programming because I modified the buy menus in counter-strike to my liking when I was a young teen and immediately got hooked by the idea that I could make my computer automate things for me. And let's be honest, as much as I like(d) counter-strike it's not an intellectual game by a long shot. I remember my internet was so bad I had to add wait;wait;wait between issuing commands to t…

> And let's be honest, as much as I like(d) counter-strike it's not an intellectual game by a long shot. Oh, you'd be surprised by how much strategy goes into CS at the highest levels of play.

My first devops experience was maintaining Red Hat 7 boxes hosting Counter-Strike servers. I believe the version of CS at the time was 1.1. Our clan leader was IT for some company in Boston and was able to have these servers out of his office on a 100 mbit connection when the average internet connection was still dial up. I think I was 15 at the time.

The experience tought me a lot about SSH, compiling, text logs, config files, etc etc etc.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#43
I have a 2 and a half year old son now. My wife and I have found for us that the right answer is simply moderation, variety, and supervision.

1. We moderate how much time is spent on screens. Each day he probably spends a total of an hour or less in front of any screen (iPad/iPhone/Projector).

2. He does watch some (highly filtered) educational YouTube content, but we also make sure he's playing educational and interactive games, like building, drawing, and learning Chinese (we're a bilingual household). He also has lots of books and we read to him actively, he participates in sports, we take him outside to playgrounds and parks, do arts and crafts with him, and he helps us with chores around the house (in a fun way), etc.

3. When he is playing a game or watching a video, we're there participating. We're monitoring and filtering the content he's viewing, and we're actively adding to the educational experience by talking about the things he's seeing and doing with him.

Technology is a tool, and how it's used matters. Outright banning it means we're missing out on its potential benefits, and also we miss the opportunity to teach him from an early age how to use it properly. I fear a child who hasn't learned to cope with technology for 13 years and is then suddenly introduced to it will struggle far more.

It was a little bit of a struggle at first, but now when we tell him it's time to turn off the iPad, he usually will do it himself without fuss, and he increasingly will turn it off without even prompting and move on to another activity like reading or drawing.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#44

This article doesn’t really explain what the dark consensus is beyond just “screens bad”. There are certainly some things on modern computers that are little more than Skinner boxes, but those things aren’t what the parents in the article are talking about. What makes Fortnite and Youtube videos worse than Nerf guns and library books?

> "What makes Fortnite and Youtube videos worse than Nerf guns and library books?"

Well for one, and this is a big one, many games implement specific features such as character progression, rewards and even loot boxes that are specifically made to keep you playing. They directly trigger dopamine reward centers in the brain and are very much tied to addiction. Loot boxes especially are literally just gambling.

Youtube kids is also all kinds of messed up. Videos created using algorithms specifically to draw the attention of kids and sometimes contain very disturbing images and themes.

This article is a good overview of how Youtube is not a good choice for kids: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/17/peppa-pig...

Here is a video on Jake Paul (and many big youtubers) and how he markets HARD to kids while also having videos containing very inappropriate material: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywcY8TvES6c

On top of this, in terms of TV/Youtube vs books, there is a big difference in terms of it's effect on language, communication, and development. Also, TV/Youtube is a passive form of learning, reading books is active:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/books-vs-tv-how-they-stac_b_1...

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#45

>Technologists building these products and writers observing the tech revolution were naïve, he said. >"We thought we could control it,” Mr. Anderson said. “And this is beyond our power to control. This is going straight to the pleasure centers of the developing brain. This is beyond our capacity as regular parents to understand." A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all kn…

I see two problems with how we view addiction:

- Everything has a potential of being addictive, but we focus so much on drugs since they have some especially addicting properties that aren't present in other habits.

- We're stuck with Enlightenment age thinking such as "tabula rasa" and we attribute too much human behavior to free will, an ill-defined term that nobody whom I ask can provide a comprehensive answer to.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the reality. I lost days playing Red Alert. Video games used to be fun. The used to be challenging. Even Super Mario Bros 3 was a challenging game that provided a sense of accomplishment. Today gaming is much broader. Video games have merged with the larger gaming world (gambling). Most iOS games aren’t fun. They aren’t challenging. The are games of random chance at best. Like video poker or a Vegas slot mach…

Challenge is not the issue. Dark Souls is bloody difficult, but that doesn't mean that I feel like I've been using my brain after playing it. Video games are awesome, but they provide too much stimulation and instant gratification for little kids. I don't think TV is much better, but video games are way more entertaining than TV.

Dude, playing Dark Souls requires more brain power than the vast majority of most peoples’ jobs.

If my kid was good at Dark Souls I’d be impressed. Hell, if I was good at Dark Souls I’d be impressed with myself.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#47

>Technologists building these products and writers observing the tech revolution were naïve, he said. >"We thought we could control it,” Mr. Anderson said. “And this is beyond our power to control. This is going straight to the pleasure centers of the developing brain. This is beyond our capacity as regular parents to understand." A 6 year old's brain has no chance against a team of trained data scientists. We all kn…

I see this playing out right now with Apple's phones, which get continuously bigger and shinier and brighter with every new generation.

Then they give us "Screen Time" and Tim Cook talks about giving people the tools to be aware of how much they're using their phones and to make their own decisions about it.

If drug companies said "We're discontinuing Advil for your headaches and replacing all painkillers with small dosage opiates, but we'll give you an app to count how much you're taking and you can make your own decisions" we'd immediately jump down their throats.

Apple discontinues the iPhone SE, standardizes on a comparatively gigantic 6.1 inch screen size for their mainstream phone model, and tells us "It's fine. We gave people a new app so they won't get addicted to their phones."

I don't think it's fine. Apple's just in denial about it because the design team likes big shiny things, premium phones print money, and users keep on buying them because we collectively don't have a grip on the downsides.

Just give me a damn phone that I can call a car or text friends on, I don't want to or need to spend hours consuming media on a giant shiny screen. But if I get a giant shiny screen foisted on me, I know it's going to happen.

But like you said, if someone's living on their phone too much, we treat it like their own moral failing. The manufacturers that made the phones this way and the software companies that deliberately A/B tested their engagement stats to death to rope you in as hard as possible and sell more ads? Nah, not their fault. It's these irresponsible phone users not owning up to their own faults.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#48

There is always a tendency to blame the addiction on the substance, but it's usually symptomatic of something deeper. In this case I think it's happening because parents don't have as much time to spend with their children as they have in past generations and screens are a convenient way of keeping a child occupied in a safe way.

It is also the responsibility of developers to apply some ethical guidelines. As it stands, media and games are being designed with addictive rewards to hook in adults and children alike, in the name of monetization.

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#49
I’m curious how people invite other kids over for kid parties. That kid can’t drink soda, this one is forbidden screens, this one is no gluten, that one is no meat. When you have a baby, does the hospital give you a giant list of stuff you could forbid them to choose from?

Re: A Dark Consensus About Screens and Kids Begins to Emerge in Silicon Valley

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this for a while, particularly with respect to how our kids and grandkids will view these devices, systems, and patterns of behaviours— "Oh, there's grandpa, needing to leave the restaurant for a few minutes to get his social media fix because they've banned screens in here for privacy/ambiance/preference reasons."

Gosh I hope not, I can't imagine needing to do this!

On a recent tour, Jack White was banning cell phones at the concert - you had to check them at the door. Everyone I know who went to that show raved about the experience, to not feel the need to check in, to not see phones lifted above the audience film things, to just focus on the music.
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