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MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

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Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I like relational data and I _love_ Postgres specifically, there are some tasks and contexts for which non-relational stores are better suited.

I'm guessing you're already aware, but for anyone that isn't - Postgres supports JSON as well https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/datatype-json.html

While Postgres definitely has support for document-store like behaviors and can function in that capacity just fine, that's not the same thing as saying you can just substitute it for a document-oriented store like MongoDB.

Having said that, for someone who's already using Postgres, it's a great way to introduce some document-related behaviors (as opposed to strictly relational ones) by using the features it already has.

Even MariaDB is taking steps in this direction with many non-traditional relational types of storage options now available.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#43

I don't understand the line of reasoning. Can anyone give me a lay explanation? My understanding of the license change is basically "if you use MongoDB to support any site, all software higher in the stack needs to be released as well". Is that accurate? If so, why can't an author make this part of the license?

IP lawyer here :)

"If so, why can't an author make this part of the license?"

So let's separate out two questions implicit here:

Can you make this part of a license?

Would you win if you sued someone for violating it?

The answer to the first is clearly yes, you can license it however you want :-).

However, like most IP, in basically all countries there are limitations on how you are allowed to license things, to ensure the original goals of copyright are respected.

Those limitations are usually presented as defenses.

Van gave two examples of defenses.

There are others.

For example, patent misuse is a defense to patent infringement.

Here's a concrete example of patent misuse that may be easier to understand than copyright misuse:

You sell a thing that infringes my patent.

In order for you to avoid infringing my patent, I force you to pay royalties for 10 years (Rather than a smaller length of time).

But wait, the patent expires in 5 years!

Can I enforce this?

No. It's patent misuse. You cannot use your currently valid patent to force someone to pay royalties past the validity period of your patent.

Another example:

You have a product X that infringes my patent. I use my patent on X force you into an agreement to pay royalties on a product Y that doesn't infringe my patent.

Can i enforce this?

No. You shouldn't be able to use the patent on X to force me to pay royalties on something that doesn't use your patent.

To bring it back to Van's examples, the copyright misuse is similar to the patent misuse i just gave you.

You can't leverage your copyright on X to force me to do something with an unrelated thing.

The GPL and AGPL are very careful about this. The AGPL applies to modified versions (which are derivative works) and only extends to pieces that are derivative works. The GPL is the same - only the derivative works are touched. That is within the copyright rights of the thing that was AGPL/GPL'd.

How do you know it's unrelated to a given copyright?

If X could not claim any copyright rights over it, it's unrelated. This usually comes down to whether it's a derivative work not because the other rights are not very broad in coverage.

Here, the license is taking X, and saying "You must do something with unrelated thing Y, which is clearly not within the scope of copyright of X". So I am trying to use my copyright right in X to force you to do it. Note: No lawyer believes there is any reasonable argument that completely and totally independent piece of software X that does say, monitoring, is a derivative work.

So that's a good start on copyright misuse :)

(The other prong is about whether it restricts competition, which they already admit is their goal here)

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing you're already aware, but for anyone that isn't - Postgres supports JSON as well https://www.postgresql.org/docs/10/static/datatype-json.html

While Postgres definitely has support for document-store like behaviors and can function in that capacity just fine, that's not the same thing as saying you can just substitute it for a document-oriented store like MongoDB. Having said that, for someone who's already using Postgres, it's a great way to introduce some document-related behaviors (as opposed to strictly relational ones) by using the features it already…

I think you can absolutely do it (and have) using something like: http://jasperfx.github.io/marten/

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#46
post #11

Isn't it just so that the Mongo's SSPL is a natural extension of AGPL, modified to make it cover things that wouldn't otherwise be considered a derived work (which is exactly what FSFs interpretation of GPL does for more typical, 'single-host' situations), and inheriting the AGPL's problems?

I'm not sure what the question is, but the AGPL is very carefully drafted to avoid the problems Van is talking about.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#47

Absolutely. This license change takes it completely out of the contention for anything I would have previously considered it for. Can you imagine if Nginx said you had to release any software you run behind it as FOSS?

And then what? The owner of the code is entitled to license the software as they want it [1]. If you dislike the license, then use a different program or fork the last version before the license change. I can fully understand the frustration of pro-copyleft developers and companies that want to use copyleft for a 'share or pay model'. Cloud computing makes existing licenses toothless by moving the software from the c…

> The owner of the code is entitled to license the software as they want it [1]

> ...

> [1]Whether it is enforceable is another issue.

As per the article, apparently not. Copyright Misuse [1] will stop them setting terms beyond a certain scope. You could argue that that merely makes the licence unenforceable but by that definition the only thing worth talking about is enforceability, so that doesn't seem like a good definition as there are practical enforceability issues to separately consider

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_misuse

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#48

> accused infringer would then, quite rightly, plead impracticability I’m not a lawyer, but I wouldn’t expect that to be a valid defense. If you can’t comply, don’t use it.

I wish the article had taken this question more seriously. Impracticability is a defense under contract, but a fundamental requirement in the US test is:

> "an occurrence of a condition, the nonoccurrence of which was a basic assumption of the contract"

Impracticability is not a defense against signing stupid or damaging contracts; it specifically releases a party when circumstances change such that a contract is no longer reasonable. Standard examples are things like the outbreak of war or a supply chain collapse, which don't render a contract literally impossible to fulfill but do place fulfillment outside the domain of any reasonable effort.

Defending against conditions which were already in place when a contract was signed is far harder, and even impossibility is not necessarily a defense if the impossibility is obvious at the time of signing. The only common defense I know of against conditions present at the time of signing is illegality, which of course comes up quite often with things like noncompete clauses.

The misuse complaint at least looks plausible, but I'm pretty baffled by the appeal to impracticability.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#49
post #3

Use Postgres, problem solved.

Performance is pretty damn good too compared to MongoDB: https://www.percona.com/live/e17/sites/default/files/slides/...

Thank you for that presentation, it is pretty cool to see other production systems using FreeBSD + ZFS together with PostgreSQL :-)

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#50
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they’re entitled, but I’m also entitled to say I think this move was either idiotic or malevolent. I’m unsympathetic to the “oh no the cloud” mindset. I’ve worked at companies that have made on-premise patches to FOSS since the 90s. Can you imagine if Linux required you to make the source available of all software you ran on it? Or MySQL? Or Perl/PHP? I can vaguely see the point of the AGPL for things like…

You use their code for free and call them "idiotic or malevolent" when they make it harder for you to use their code for free. I can completely understand the frustration of their users if this move makes their life harder but it's still pretty entitled of you to insult them because they changed the license to something you don't like. It's perfectly understandable if you decide not to use their software because you…

There is a decent chance that they’re using code I’ve written, and I haven’t seen a penny from them. Have you? Has anyone?

I think it’s either:

- Idiotic, because they meant well but managed to shoot themselves in the foot by making their software unviable, or

- Malevolent, because they’re using this as a wedge to either force you into a pay-or-lose-it situation, while still trying to paint themselves as FOSS.

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