I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them • Hacker News Board

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#41

Post by QuotedForTruth » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

ElBarto wrote: post #22

"Sanders has introduced a bill designed to force companies such as Amazon to pay their workers higher wages." Instead of picking on Amazon perhaps politicians should look at the actual root cause here. If there are minimum wages laws (and there are) and people paid minimum wage still need food stamps then perhaps the problem lies with minimum wages and those who set them... Politicians.

"If there are minimum wages laws (and there are) and people paid minimum wage still need food stamps then perhaps the problem lies with minimum wages and those who set them... Politicians."

If by "politicians" here you mean the one politician the article is discussing, Sen Sanders, you should know that he is for increasing the minimum wage. [1] Of course he needs other politicians and/or their voters to agree.

This corporate welfare angle he is currently attacking is just an attempt to point out the problem with a different argument. An argument that some people may be more receptive to. We've already agreed that we as a society will pay to support poor people. Corporations take advantage of this to lower their payroll costs. Whether they foot the bill for the government costs via corporate taxes or just pay a living wage in the first place is worth arguing about once we fisrst decide to stop letting them take advantage of people.

[1] https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-living-wage/

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#42

Post by la6470 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #36

IMO, it is never proper for the legislature to target an individual or individual company. It's perfectly fine for enforcement agencies (OSHA, FDA, IRS, FAA, FTC, SEC, etc) to enforce policy/law on individuals/companies who have been found in violation, but to originally target individuals with the force of government lawmaking is a dramatic overreach of power, IMO. If Senator Sanders et al want to target all compani…

While all political parties are sheding alligator tears over this why are they not coming together to Raise the minimum wage?

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#43

Post by wetpaws » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

devit wrote: post #35

EpicEng wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or alternatively a ban on having children if the parents can't provide an equivalent payment. Yours is the stuff dystopian literature is made of. You want to severely limit freedom for the greater good, a tactic which never works.

I don't think people should be entitled to the freedom of having children no matter what, since having children forces significant externalities on society, especially if there's an agreement that everyone should have a good standard of living (as implied by this article) or even just that there's a right to healthcare; and even without those, since the children may become criminals and harm others. The root causes o…

Yikes, that does not sound like a good society to live in.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#44

Post by mc32 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #36

IMO, it is never proper for the legislature to target an individual or individual company. It's perfectly fine for enforcement agencies (OSHA, FDA, IRS, FAA, FTC, SEC, etc) to enforce policy/law on individuals/companies who have been found in violation, but to originally target individuals with the force of government lawmaking is a dramatic overreach of power, IMO. If Senator Sanders et al want to target all compani…

I think Gov Cuomo is right. That whilr progressives had an explosion of light and a fervent base, they don’t represent the majority of the Dem party and will not own the party if they stray into Chavista territory too far.

Many of their candidates lost to moderate dems because most dems are not so different from moderate repubs on most issues, save a few. In any case, they are not willing to go too far from orthodoxy.

Now, in general i agree these cos. should pay their contract and temps better, but I’d rather he use other tactics.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#45

Post by wetpaws » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

la6470 wrote: post #8

TFA is written by a guy who took the job to collect anecdotes to write a book to show how miserable life is for low wage earners and now it is time to market the book. Sorry but I am skeptic about this article and think it is an exaggeration. At the same time if it is true why are folks not simply resigning and going to a better job? It is a free country isn’t it? Why is minimum wage still so low and why are all poli…

Just because you don't like it it does not mean this is not true.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#46

Post by 394549 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

LitFan wrote: post #17

grecy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the question we have to ask is do we want to live in a society where this treatment is legal? Obviously Amazon make a lot of profit... if we forced them to treat their workers better surely they'd still make a lot of profit... just slightly less.

As a society we've decided that we do, because we are. The shoddy treatment of Amazon's employees has been publicized repeatedly for years. The issue is that while the average person is lead to believe the notion that they can work hard and make enough to have a comfortable living, they can only afford it at the expense of others. The wealthy will not let that be at their expense - they want it to be at the expense o…

> As a society we've decided that we do, because we are. The shoddy treatment of Amazon's employees has been publicized repeatedly for years.

The operations of the market, with its vast information asymmetries, does not amount to a "decision" to endorse the particular behaviors of its participants. And even if Amazon's labor practices have been reported somewhere, they haven't been reported everywhere, and it's not like Amazon is up front with its customers about its shoddy treatment of its workers.

I have a lot of confidence that many of Amazon's labor practices would be banned if they were put up for a straight-up national referendum.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#47

Post by Gatsky » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #2

The people who work in these warehouses should unionize. They have a strong case and their roles can not be outsourced. These things have to be local for it to work - it needs people for it to work. Automation may come eventually but it's not as close as people think. This is the perfect environment for a union to operate in.

There are many problems with unions. But, every time there is no union, the company screws workers. Screws them to within an inch of common decency. This just seems to be a basic law of human interaction - those that can be exploited will be exploited. With the right legislative environment, unions can be very effective, especially for logistics industries where down time is very costly for the company.

Not sure there is an amicable solution to this. Company v union battles obviously harm productivity, but not sure how else to avoid the not-so-slow march towards inhuman exploitation of workers.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#48

Post by 394549 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

LitFan wrote: post #29

grecy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If all of those subsidies were to vanish, the standard of living for most lower to middle class people would drop substantially I see so many discussions in US politics that go around and around and bend over backwards to never, ever propose the extremely simple and obvious solution.... (...drum roll...) Companies simply lower profits. Conditions for the workers go up with better conditions & higher pay. The prices…

Lowering profits means reduced shareholder value and a lower market capitalization. Every company is interested in providing as much value to shareholders as possible. I don't know all the ins and outs, but I believe public trading and shareholders are to blame here. And again - the middle to upper middle class people who rely on returns from their investments in companies to support their standard of living think th…

> Lowering profits means reduced shareholder value and a lower market capitalization. Every company is interested in providing as much value to shareholders as possible.

Ultimately, it's pro-business elite politics that have created that situation. IIRC, corporations, like copyrights, exist to serve the public good. If rapacious exploitation to achieve maximum profit is against the public good, the corporations that engage in such behavior should be either reigned in or destroyed using the legal system.

Unfortunately, like copyrights, corporate law has been twisted an corrupted into something that doesn't serve the public good anymore.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#49

Post by falcolas » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

snarfy wrote: post #34

LitFan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lowering profits means reduced shareholder value and a lower market capitalization. Every company is interested in providing as much value to shareholders as possible. I don't know all the ins and outs, but I believe public trading and shareholders are to blame here. And again - the middle to upper middle class people who rely on returns from their investments in companies to support their standard of living think th…

It's not that they are interested in providing as much value possible - they are legally mandated. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co .

Other court cases have shown that shareholder value is not solely profits. Shareholder value is also obtained by creating a company that will survive and thrive over time - it's why Target and Costco can both survive while paying reasonable wages to their employees.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#50

Post by tengbretson » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 3:26 PM UTC

prolikewh0a wrote: post #24

grecy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the question we have to ask is do we want to live in a society where this treatment is legal? Obviously Amazon make a lot of profit... if we forced them to treat their workers better surely they'd still make a lot of profit... just slightly less.

>So the question we have to ask is do we want to live in a society where this treatment is legal? Because we live in this fantasy land of the [dead] 'American Dream', where if you work hard, absolutely bust your ass and kill yourself for 70 years, you'll get to be Jeff Bezos too. If you're complaining about your job, just get a new one , or pull your boot straps up and accept it, it's that easy. We're constantly told…

> Because we live in this fantasy land of the [dead] 'American Dream', where if you work hard, absolutely bust your ass and kill yourself for 70 years, you'll get to be Jeff Bezos too.

This never has and never will be the American Dream. The American Dream isn't a rags to riches fairy tale. The American Dream is about inter-generational class mobility. If you bust your tail all your life, you can raise your children's quality of life to a higher standard than your own.

That's all its ever been and its alive and well today.