Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

foreignpolicy.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 60 posts

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#41

Post by yAnonymous »

zapita wrote: post #34
faag39 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying something racist, homophobic, denying the holocaust, etc. can very well have you fined or even land you in prison.

Ah, you mean there is free speech and also reasonably scoped restrictions on hate speech. I’m okay with that. Do you have an example to share that shows how that is a bad thing in practice? Because I’n having trouble finding one.

See my other post. Hate speech laws are actively used in Germany to manipulate political campaigns. The legal process has been removed and private organizations close to the government get to decide what's hate speech and what's not.

And that's exactly the problem with it: It cannot be clearly defined and everyone is offended by different things, which makes it a perfect tool to censor just about everything you want.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#42

Post by peterlk »

Paraesthetic wrote: post #28

Excellent, an Internet that is heavily censored by Google. I guess thats the ultimate agenda of most governments, which means its the end goal of Google's greed.

To be honest, I don't see this censorship as such a big deal, it's an annoying speed bump, but not much more. Media has censored things forever, and as long as the internet remains open, it's not like censoring search results will prevent information from existing on the internet. It just means that we might need to build some new channels to share it. To me, the scary thing is the centralization of power with respect to networking (DNS/BGP/switching/etc. - see net neutrality). If internet infrastructure remains open, we'll continue to have the opportunity to build mastodon, duckduckgo, OSM, etc. And eventually those things will overtake the walled gardens that "Megacorp"s are cornering themselves into. Linux is the shining example of this.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#43

Post by wildebaard »

yAnonymous wrote: post #19
wildebaard wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say there is no freedom of speech in the EU? I also live there but I do not experience it like that.

German here. Our government has pressured Facebook to allow private corporations (that of course are close to the government) to delete Facebook content -posts and pages with millions of followers- for political reasons as they see fit. The legal process was completely removed. They use this to help their election campaigns by branding government critical content as extremist and having it removed without due process…

Well, if the definition of free speech is 'it should be allowed on Facebook' then that's a horrible definition :)

It does point toward a bigger issue, where Facebook is used and trusted by so many users that they do not access alternative sources of information.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#44

Post by yAnonymous »

wildebaard wrote: post #43
yAnonymous wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here. Our government has pressured Facebook to allow private corporations (that of course are close to the government) to delete Facebook content -posts and pages with millions of followers- for political reasons as they see fit. The legal process was completely removed. They use this to help their election campaigns by branding government critical content as extremist and having it removed without due process…

Well, if the definition of free speech is 'it should be allowed on Facebook' then that's a horrible definition :) It does point toward a bigger issue, where Facebook is used and trusted by so many users that they do not access alternative sources of information.

No. The companies involved (Arvato/Bertelsmann) get to make their own rules. Facebook doesn't even have a say in this, although they're paying for it as required by the law. They were threatened with fines in the millions (up to 50 mil) if they didn't comply.

The situation is absurd. Facebook is legally required to pay for censorship by companies with close ties to the government.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#45

Post by zapita »

yAnonymous wrote: post #41
zapita wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, you mean there is free speech and also reasonably scoped restrictions on hate speech. I’m okay with that. Do you have an example to share that shows how that is a bad thing in practice? Because I’n having trouble finding one.

See my other post. Hate speech laws are actively used in Germany to manipulate political campaigns. The legal process has been removed and private organizations close to the government get to decide what's hate speech and what's not. And that's exactly the problem with it: It cannot be clearly defined and everyone is offended by different things, which makes it a perfect tool to censor just about everything you want.

Do you have an example to share? The comment I’m replying to is pretty specific about topics: homophobia and denying the holocaust. Do you feel those are reasonable things to include in a hate speech regulations?

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#46

Post by faag36 »

zapita wrote: post #45
yAnonymous wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my other post. Hate speech laws are actively used in Germany to manipulate political campaigns. The legal process has been removed and private organizations close to the government get to decide what's hate speech and what's not. And that's exactly the problem with it: It cannot be clearly defined and everyone is offended by different things, which makes it a perfect tool to censor just about everything you want.

Do you have an example to share? The comment I’m replying to is pretty specific about topics: homophobia and denying the holocaust. Do you feel those are reasonable things to include in a hate speech regulations?

If you have "hate speech regulations", then you don't have free speech. It doesn't matter if you think that's good or bad for you or for others.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#47

Post by wildebaard »

yAnonymous wrote: post #44
wildebaard wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the definition of free speech is 'it should be allowed on Facebook' then that's a horrible definition :) It does point toward a bigger issue, where Facebook is used and trusted by so many users that they do not access alternative sources of information.

No. The companies involved (Arvato/Bertelsmann) get to make their own rules. Facebook doesn't even have a say in this, although they're paying for it as required by the law. They were threatened with fines in the millions (up to 50 mil) if they didn't comply. The situation is absurd. Facebook is legally required to pay for censorship by companies with close ties to the government.

If I understand you correctly, this censorship only applies to Facebook. If that's correct, then I still do not agree with the statement 'there is no free speech' unless Facebook is your/the sole source of information. However, I do agree that it's problematic.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#48

Post by KennyCason »

I wonder if Google having a stronger presence and relationships in China, even if censored, would in fact be a better alternative than not having a presence in China. Another way the west can influence China and its direction is from the inside. It seems pretty clear that just avoiding the market due to morality isn’t really achieving anything. It just leaves a bigger void for local Chinese companies to fill. I’m in China now and I can tell you most people don’t really know or care about Google. Also, for the most part, your average person doesn’t even perceive the fact that their internet is restricted, and those that do, use VPNs anyways and have probably traveled abroad at some point. I’m beginning to think we should be injecting as much influence INTO China as possible if we want to have any ground later.

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#49

Post by undreren »

yAnonymous wrote: post #44
wildebaard wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the definition of free speech is 'it should be allowed on Facebook' then that's a horrible definition :) It does point toward a bigger issue, where Facebook is used and trusted by so many users that they do not access alternative sources of information.

No. The companies involved (Arvato/Bertelsmann) get to make their own rules. Facebook doesn't even have a say in this, although they're paying for it as required by the law. They were threatened with fines in the millions (up to 50 mil) if they didn't comply. The situation is absurd. Facebook is legally required to pay for censorship by companies with close ties to the government.

Source?

Re: Google Is Handing the Future of the Internet to China

#50

Post by undreren »

faag36 wrote: post #46
zapita wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example to share? The comment I’m replying to is pretty specific about topics: homophobia and denying the holocaust. Do you feel those are reasonable things to include in a hate speech regulations?

If you have "hate speech regulations", then you don't have free speech. It doesn't matter if you think that's good or bad for you or for others.

That depends what you mean with free speech. "I want to say anything I want, and no one can punish me for it" only makes sense if you believe your words have no consequences.
Post reply on HN