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Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

cnbc.com

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Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#41

Post by vkjv »

jrockway wrote: post #16

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they like conservative driving. "I would have risked that left turn, so you should have too. The person with the green light would have slowed down to avoid an accident, probably, and I would have gotten to the next red light 10 seconds sooner!" You will also hear this when talking about less-capable drivers ("get off the road, grandma!") or less-capable vehicles ("I hate havi…

Every single time someone honks at me for this, I'm tempted to stay in place longer than necessary. Fortunately--most of the time--I think better of being this petty and passive aggressive.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#42

Post by kazinator »

> One woman said that she almost hit one of the company's minivans because it suddenly stopped while trying to make a right turn, while another man said that he gets so frustrated waiting for the cars to cross the intersection that he has illegally driven around them.

I.e. obnoxiously bad human drivers hate impeccably good drivers that happen to be robots.

Suddenly stopped trying to make a right turn? I'm not convinced by that without evidence that it was not a required stop, like turning into a road that has right-of-way.

Passing cars at intersections is not only illegal but a dangerous dickhead move. I don't care what a dangerous dickhead thinks about self-driving cars or any other cars; please don't repeat it and convey it as news.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#43

Post by WorldMaker »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #5

> The anecdotes highlight how challenging it can be for self-driving cars, which are programmed to drive conservatively, to master situations that human drivers can handle with relative ease, like merging or finding a gap in traffic to make a turn. Human drivers are terrible at both of these. I'm regularly getting stuck behind people who won't make a right turn even as a line of people are making the left turn that s…

I'm assuming here that you mean an uncontrolled right turn, where the right turn is at a red light or stop sign.

Is that Left Turn lane also uncontrolled in that moment that you are complaining about? That is, are you talking about the situation where people in the next lane are making a left turn at a green left turn only light or is it the uncontrolled stop sign (though rare to have a multi-lane stop sign) or more common flashing yellow left turn light (or jurisdictional equivalent; as some states allow uncontrolled left turns on red lights, and some drivers think all states do though they do not)?

In the case of people making an uncontrolled left turn when you are attempting an uncontrolled right turn you have an interesting relative to the prisoner's dilemma. As you point out, there should be some "shield" from mistakes in opposing traffic by nature of the person to your left making a left turn. But that same "shield" also blocks your vision of intersection, so you have to trust that the person making the uncontrolled left turn is situationally aware of their surroundings to not make a mistake. Even as a physical "shield" in that moment, basic physics will remind you that momentum is a jerk (terrible pun intended) and there is no guarantee that the left turning car will absorb any or all of an impact. In making that right turn you may not be risking a direct impact, but you can still be risking a three or more car pile-up.

To cover both bases, if the left turn is controlled at that moment, with a green left turn light, at least where I live that often means the opposite left turn light is also on, which is not a good opportunity for an uncontrolled right turn either. (Also too because depending on intersection size and layout here too the people making the controlled left turn to your immediate left may decrease the visibility of oncoming traffic making the left turn on the other side of the intersection.)

I get honked at somewhat routinely for precisely these scenarios, and I doubt most of the people think of that sort of risk calculus in their impatience in those moments (and they certainly don't have my assessment of intersection visibility from behind me).

I wouldn't program a car to make an uncontrolled right turn in those situations either, and it certainly sounds like that sort of behavior is what is causing some of the complaints in the linked article.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#44

Post by rhacker »

zamalek wrote: post #12
klodolph wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also wondering what part of this is due to them being programmed to follow the letter of the law, instead of driving like other drivers.

As someone who attempts to follow the letter of the law, I experience quite a few incidents of aggressive driving. The complaints here are really just demonstrating how bad humans are at driving - the frustration probably arises due to the fact that they are unable to intimidate the driver in front of them with aggressive behavior. > One woman said that she almost hit one of the company's minivans because it suddenly…

This is the truth here. I also try to follow the letter of the law. I always assume that a brick wall may suddenly shoot up in front of the car in front of me, stopping it instantly and killing everyone in it. So following closer than the recommended distance, is idiotic.

How often will a brick wall shoot up in front of a car like life is a video game? Probably a really low percentage, but cats, deer, blown tires, trailers falling off, jackknifing trucks - all can have similar effects.

Even knowing my car may get the brick wall, which I can't avoid, I can at least do the best I can to avoid someone else's.

Google's challenge however, is that we are in a very very small minority.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#45

Post by tejtm »

vorpalhex wrote: post #14
klodolph wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also wondering what part of this is due to them being programmed to follow the letter of the law, instead of driving like other drivers.

That is a real problem that I'm curious to see how Alphabet solves. In many areas of the country, the posted speed limit is often much lower than the realistic speed cars are going - following the letter of the law becomes unsafe behavior when you're going 15mph slower than everyone else. Of course, the answer here is probably the most boring: following the letter of the law ensures the least liability.

Perhaps Alphabet could buy billboards with driving law writ large or direct G to serve recaptchas requiring answerers to driver safety quizzes

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#46

Post by notahacker »

syntaxing wrote: post #3

I'm really curious whether this frustration is truly because of the limitation of the technology(which is totally possible) or because of some sort of cognitive bias/confirmation. Would they feel the same frustration if the van had no decals or visible sensors? Are they more frustrated at the cars more than the other drivers? Community "anger" can be really perplexing like how a community of people were complaining a…

It's possible the human drivers frustrated at waiting behind slow Google cars reluctant to turn left in traffic are perceiving the vehicles as more cautious than they actually are because they know they're automated (as well as because they're so numerous), but in all probability they actually are calibrated to be more cautious than even fairly sensible human drivers when driving across oncoming traffic. And ultimately, if autonomous vehicles are ever going to make it onto normal roads, they're going to have to live with human perceptions of them as well, accurate or otherwise. The original article[1] cites an example of a human driver admitting that he got so frustrated waiting for them to turn left at junctions he dangerously and illegally overtook them there, which is a reminder that taking or being perceived to take a cautious approach doesn't necessarily lead to a net safety increase where it is likely to have an effect on the behaviour other drivers.

Also, some of the cited examples sound like clear errors and lane discipline issues that sounds too blatant to just be perception. The original author's Twitter thread even illustrates a tangible example[2] of a potentially dangerous driving error the technology made, where a turning vehicle apparently reacts to an oncoming vehicle intending to turn in behind it (signalling and possibly moving a little early) by hard braking in mid turn, obstructing the oncoming vehicle intending to merge and possibly giving a following vehicle a surprise as well. A reminder that coming to a stop is not always the most sensible response to uncertainty. If the human driver wasn't involved in restarting that car, that incident probably doesn't appear in its much-trumpeted disengagement statistics though...

[1]https://www.theinformation.com/articles/waymos-big-ambitions... - probably worth the annoying email harvest if you're interested [2]https://twitter.com/amir/status/1034443909341106177

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#47

Post by kazinator »

jrockway wrote: post #16

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they like conservative driving. "I would have risked that left turn, so you should have too. The person with the green light would have slowed down to avoid an accident, probably, and I would have gotten to the next red light 10 seconds sooner!" You will also hear this when talking about less-capable drivers ("get off the road, grandma!") or less-capable vehicles ("I hate havi…

> And of course, nobody ever says "you're going 80, the speed limit is 55! slow down!"

Oh yes they do! Remember the old rule: anyone going slower than you is a moron, and anyone faster is an asshole.

People broadly disapprove of those who engage more deeply in excess than they do.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#48

Post by jstanley »

vkjv wrote: post #41
jrockway wrote: post #16

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they like conservative driving. "I would have risked that left turn, so you should have too. The person with the green light would have slowed down to avoid an accident, probably, and I would have gotten to the next red light 10 seconds sooner!" You will also hear this when talking about less-capable drivers ("get off the road, grandma!") or less-capable vehicles ("I hate havi…

Every single time someone honks at me for this, I'm tempted to stay in place longer than necessary. Fortunately--most of the time--I think better of being this petty and passive aggressive.

If people are honking at you, are you sure you're being safe and not just being annoying?

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#49

Post by snowwrestler »

zamalek wrote: post #12
klodolph wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also wondering what part of this is due to them being programmed to follow the letter of the law, instead of driving like other drivers.

As someone who attempts to follow the letter of the law, I experience quite a few incidents of aggressive driving. The complaints here are really just demonstrating how bad humans are at driving - the frustration probably arises due to the fact that they are unable to intimidate the driver in front of them with aggressive behavior. > One woman said that she almost hit one of the company's minivans because it suddenly…

Why do you attempt to follow the letter of the law? Not even traffic officers follow the letter of the law; it's rare to get pulled over for going 60mph in a 55mph zone, for example.

Do you ever find yourself on a road getting passed by all the other cars? Isn't that annoying? Why not just speed up a few mph and join the herd?

I'm honestly asking; I just do not get the appeal.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#50

Post by Pxtl »

umvi wrote: post #39
snowwrestler wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a result, traffic accidents are the leading cause of death for people from 8-24. "As a result" is a pretty big stretch. Traffic accidents result from unexpected situations. People who drive a lot learn to read the environment and the drivers around them and anticipate what will happen next. When those anticipations are violated, it runs the risk of creating a surprise that can't be managed. That is just as true…

> That is just as true for a violation in the conservative direction as in the aggressive direction. I've been caught by surprise before when a conservative driver slammed on their brakes when the light turned yellow even though there was ample time for both of us to coast through the light. Instead, I nearly rear-ended them.

Yellow doesn't mean "you can go through if you can beat the red". It means "stop if it is safe to do so". If it's just firm braking and not actual tires-squealing stop? The driver probably did the right thing.
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