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My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

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Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#41

Post by jjjensen90 »

DoritoChef wrote: post #9

Posts like these really continue drive home the message of "Silicon Valley is just a shell of what it used to be. Only go there for the sake of relocation or with a job offer in hand." There's nothing left for the dreamers or hopefuls in SV who have nothing to run on but just that--hopes and dreams. It just makes so much more sense to take a pay cut and swing for the fences in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, or Phoenix. He…

Phoenix is a good option if you don't mind the summers. The salaries are very good for the cost of living (salaries seem to be increased because of the proximity to California, I even somewhat frequently see startup jobs in SV with lower salaries than an equivalent position in PHX with some negotiation). There is a good mix of startups, mid-sized companies, and juggernauts like Amazon, Amex, PayPal, GM, etc.

Importantly in my opinion, you can buy a nice house on middle class income in Phoenix still, or rent for very cheap, and the traffic is pretty good. You'll be car dependent in most cases but it is RADICALLY cheaper than Silicon Valley.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#43

Post by gehsty »

gumby wrote: post #19
indecisive_user wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do it if you don't like it? Uhh, because it pays well, has good job security and benefits, doesn't require multiple degrees, is respected socially, isn't physically intensive, etc. etc. Most all of my non-programmer friends don't really like their jobs all that much, so if you're not passionate about anything else, my question is why not go into software development?

Then go write back end code for Allstate. (I don't mean any insult to Allstate nor their staff; simply that it'll be a reliable, well paying 9-5). The things the author complains about (low pay, long hours, uncertain future) are positive things for me, which is why I chose the path I did. It usually includes working with really interesting people. I'm glad he abandoned it as it sounds like he would not enjoy it. Ther…

“Low pay long hours uncertain future are positives for me”

I think you mean you’ll accept them to work somewhere you want to work, if the exact same job came up but with higher pay, a guarantee that you’d only work 35hrs a week and a clear future you’d prefer the low paying hard hrs job?

I work in a none programming job in an unrelated industry and I find start up culture really weird, you have seemingly smart people willing to sacrifice their lives to build something like Pinterest (no disrespect to Pinterest but it is what it is, a social network, not putting men on the moon)... your years 20-30 should be be some of your best years, don’t waste them living in a closet.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#44

Post by Matumio »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #10
themoat wrote: post #2

I know the author wised up and moved on, but I would rather work construction for the rest of my life than be a programmer and live like this. I worked for a startup for a couple of years that really got it right. The CTO really wanted a certain lead developer as his first hire (they had previously worked together) and the lead dev said (paraphrased, of course) "Nope. Not interested in working more than 40 hours per…

It seems to me that the moral of the story is that the work is done by people, so taking care of your people actually matters. And it is basically contained in this line: That dev team has consistently deployed great feature after another at an incredible rate. I very much appreciate you leaving this comment.

Work output is one thing, but it cannot be the only morale of this story. Surely there is also some intrinsic value in creating a friendly workplace, independent of economical success. It's also a story about how to realize those values.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#45

Post by ajmurmann »

zahrc wrote: post #23

It's a weird story for me and I have absolutely no understanding for it. (no, I don't mean tolerance) I'm not from the US and am far from any startup experience, but I am a young programmer myself, without either good budget nor education. Programming is the love my life but I would never bear this situation at any cost for it. He states himself that programming was just "means to an end" for him. So why even bother?…

>He states himself that programming was just "means to an end" for him. So why even bother?

Because you gotta pay the bills somehow. This is something you only ever hear from people in our profession and I think it sometimes leads to self-exploitation.

Nobody would ever say "He states himself that driving the garbage truck was just "means to an end" for him. So why even bother?"

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#46

Post by VectorLock »

gumby wrote: post #17

This part struck me as so sad: > Programming for me was never supposed to be more than a means to an end Programming is one of my favorite things to do and I do it even when my job is something else. Why do it if you don't like it? No wonder it seemed hopeless.

There are people who loved programming and then made it a job, and there are people who got into programming because its widely considered to be a good career. Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't. Both types have their strengths and weaknesses.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#47

Post by ajmurmann »

This is of course in no way representative. If you are a software developer in SF you get very quickly to $140k+. That guy in the closet was probably stashing way North of $60k annually, not counting equity. Do this for 7-10 years and you can retire silver else and are probably in your early 30s. If you work at FAANG you can easily take home way North of $200k. No reason to rent a illegal closet at that point unless you want to be super prudent.

As for the author's situation. There are not camps in other cities. He could have attended one elsewhere and then relocate if he wanted. It's also only 3 months. You'll survive. I rented a tiny room between kitchen and living room that saw lots of threw traffic in a shitty old house in Munich when I was a student so that I could do a internship at big Corp. It was less than ideal, but when you are young you can live shitty for a while. It will make you appreciate what you have later.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#48

Post by DoreenMichele »

Matumio wrote: post #44
DoreenMichele wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the moral of the story is that the work is done by people, so taking care of your people actually matters. And it is basically contained in this line: That dev team has consistently deployed great feature after another at an incredible rate. I very much appreciate you leaving this comment.

Work output is one thing, but it cannot be the only morale of this story. Surely there is also some intrinsic value in creating a friendly workplace, independent of economical success. It's also a story about how to realize those values.

Sure, as an employee, all that stuff matters.

But I'm not going to try to convince an employer that they should care about such things out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm perfectly happy to argue that an employer should care about such things because it enhances the bottom line for the business.

When I started my corporate job, I met the only remaining living founder of the three brothers that started the company. He said something about wanting the company to be good to me and take care of me so I would take care of it.

One of the other new hires was from California. She was surprised at how warm this Southern gentleman was. She was used to the coldness and callousness of the California social climate in business circles.

I was born and raised in the Southern city where this comment was founded. I think people not looking out for their people are fools cutting their own throats.

You don't have to care about me in a "love thy neighbor" sort of way. But you should care that running me ragged if I work for you fundamentally harms your business.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#49

Post by mylons »

DoritoChef wrote: post #9

Posts like these really continue drive home the message of "Silicon Valley is just a shell of what it used to be. Only go there for the sake of relocation or with a job offer in hand." There's nothing left for the dreamers or hopefuls in SV who have nothing to run on but just that--hopes and dreams. It just makes so much more sense to take a pay cut and swing for the fences in Atlanta, Houston, Austin, or Phoenix. He…

Boston isn't really cheaper than The Bay. Traffic is terrible, so commuting by car long distances is out, and living near your job is often just as expensive as The Bay.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#50

Post by jiveturkey »

are you kidding me? it’s written as if it took place over years and decades. “the longer i stayed in the hostel, the more my life slipped away”.

it was weeks. i wouldn’t be surprised if the guy living in the closet was the owner of the unit. (or lessee)

the author thinks he’s going to graduate from boot camp and “make it”? please.

this article and the fact of its (self) publication tells us a lot about the author, and almost nothing about startup life. if you understand that, it is interesting in its own way.

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