Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#41

Post by mikekchar » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:46 AM UTC

bojo wrote: post #33

propman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

Not the parent but same situation. Been here 11 years. A lot of people can get around without speaking Japanese, but I don’t recommend it. You’ll get a much more meaningful and deeper experience out of living here if you can converse with everyone. Randomly stopping and bullshitting with a bored old guy for an hour can be quite fun! Sadly the developer pay here is pretty dismal, even more so if you come with US expec…

Just want to say that I can totally understand this as well. If you can't get a normal salaryman job, it can really be hand to mouth. I haven't even tried to get an IT job here and I'm pretty worried if I end up without a remote contract after my current gig is up.

Also, super +1 on the bored old guy thing :-) Best part of my day (although I'm rapidly becoming the bored old guy...)

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#42

Post by sofon » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:46 AM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #34

sofon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about the Japanese PM, and it's possible to make a case that current and past PMs have been racist. That's not the same as saying that the population in general are racist and Asians are oppressed i.e.: "if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed" So... data that shows that non-Japanese Asians are oppressed in Japan? On top of t…

I don't know about quantitatively worse. But if you look here, a UN rep stated that Japanese racism "primarily affects three groups: national minorities, descendants of former Japanese colonies, and foreigners from other Asian countries"[0]. He also said that racism was "deep and profound." This was in 2005. We're (United States) still trying to get rid of racism, even after the civil rights movement of 1950. Racism…

ok, so... no data then, just a series of quotes and observations about individuals.

I'd honestly be interested in learning about racism in Japan, and if it is different/worse than other countries. But all that's been presented is anecdotes.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#43

Post by freedrull » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:49 AM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #9

mikekchar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My student who was of Korean decent but was the most popular person in high school and went to a good university would disagree with you. As would my friend who was born in Korea, married a Japanese woman and moved to Japan. There is discrimination in Japan, but it's frustrating to see this trotted out time and time again as if you'll be systemically discriminated against no matter where you are. It's just not true.…

The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government. That's why a lot of Korean people born in Japan gravitate towards less savoury activities. Plus, Japanese took Chinese and Korean women and forced them to become whores or "comfort women" for the Japanese soldiers stationed in the mainland. As recently as 2014…

Why the downvotes?

From 2018:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/12/national/politi...

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#44

Post by dbjh » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:51 AM UTC

mrpopo wrote: post #31

dbjh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already mentioned that Koreans in Japan have obtained a special status that is AFAIK better than any other nationality as a direct result of WW2. As an example of an attempt to rectify things what about this long list of official apologies that are somehow forgotten in this kind of "discussion"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statemen... And you are again being disingenuous with what you care t…

From the very article you are citing : March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993.

Your quote doesn't invalidate anything I wrote. My response proved jimmywanger's claim "no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government" to be false. Also note how he moved the goalposts. In his original post he talks about how Koreans are oppressed, while in the second post he changed it to have been oppressed in the past. I have no interest in discussing the definition of "slave". I do find it irritating he brought up WW2 within 2 hours after the article was posted, just because it was about Japan. I get the impression he just wanted to use the opportunity to bad-mouth Japan.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#45

Post by lmiller1990 » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:53 AM UTC

propman wrote: post #12

mikekchar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even o…

Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience.

I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering).

Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I don't understand, but as soon as I reply in Japanese they talk to me like they would a normal Japanese person. One could consider this a "negative" experience (why judge whether I can speak Japanese based on my skin colour??) but I don't think they have negative intentions, so I don't take it personally.

I think living here without speak good Japanese would be a pretty mediocre experience. There are tons of awesome tech meets all the time, but noone speaks English. Living here but not being able to live with the people here would be a pretty lacking experience, you would really miss what makes Japan Japan (the people and culture).

I would be happy to raise a family here (I don't think I will, but I wouldn't be against it either). At least until high school age. The Japanese university system does seem nearly as good as my country (Australia), though, so I would my kids to study overseas. I think Japan is a safe place and good environment to raise a family, and has an excellent healthcare system.

One thing I noticed is developer salaries (at least if you work in a regular Japanese company, like me) are very low - I earn 50% of what my friends back home do). Maybe if you work at a company with many ex-pats you can have a higher salary.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#46

Post by lifthrasiir » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 8:56 AM UTC

dbjh wrote: post #21

jimmywanger wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government. That's why a lot of Korean people born in Japan gravitate towards less savoury activities. Plus, Japanese took Chinese and Korean women and forced them to become whores or "comfort women" for the Japanese soldiers stationed in the mainland. As recently as 2014…

I already mentioned that Koreans in Japan have obtained a special status that is AFAIK better than any other nationality as a direct result of WW2. As an example of an attempt to rectify things what about this long list of official apologies that are somehow forgotten in this kind of "discussion"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statemen... And you are again being disingenuous with what you care t…

Survivors of the so-called "comfort women" issue have focused on changing the stance of the Japanese government and less on seeking compensation (most survivors are now decreased anyway, soon there will be nothing available to compensate). When the government allocates funds and at the same time disagrees the issue, it is natural to think that it wants to wait til a storm of publicity ends---a good reason to be condemned. Also note that the government's opinion on the issue has been steadily deteriorated since 2010, as jimmywanger correctly puts. It's right to worry about.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#47

Post by dbjh » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:06 AM UTC

lifthrasiir wrote: post #40

dbjh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To name Koreans as an example is disingenuous. If you read the Wikipedia article you will also see that the problems come from both sides. The Koreans the Wikipedia article talks about do not want to fully integrate - they insist on their Korean nationality and demand rights of both Korean and Japanese nationals. At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppresse…

It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their…

I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes from.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#48

Post by devilsbabe » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

lmiller1990 wrote: post #45

propman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience. I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering). Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I do…

I've heard that salaries are on average much lower but companies offering competitive wages do exist. Like you said, you will have an easier time fitting in and earn more if you work for an international company rather than a Japanese one.

I'm a software engineer in an American tech company's Tokyo office with 1 yoe and have around ¥13M total comp.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#49

Post by carlmr » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

larrysalibra wrote: post #26

mikekchar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even o…

Not sure this is just a Japan phenomenon - seems like more of a "American tech workers are realizing there's a lot of interesting places to live outside of the USA and it's easier than ever"-phenomenon. I made the move to China and then Hong Kong about 11 years ago and don't regret it either. Anecdotally seeing increasing numbers of "high tech" people moving to Hong Kong / China too. 10 years ago it was mostly people…

Do you have any tips on how to get into China?

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#50

Post by lifthrasiir » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

dbjh wrote: post #47

lifthrasiir wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their…

I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes…

Koreans in Japan had been oppressed and are being discriminated today, and the special privileges cover both (with a focus on the former, of course). You can easily say that the oppression and discrimination is different but the border is not clear.

Note that I do not fully agree to their claims; it is rather common that legitimate victims try to maximize their compensations and the Japanese government will have to trade off anyway. But I think you are too generous to Japan on this complicated issue, showing only one aspect of the problem.