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The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

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Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#41
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, if, if: yes I know, there is no guarantee. There is no proof. I make bets. There is little profit to be found where there is no risk involved. Immortality is just that biggest profit possible, for which many risks must be taken. You know what's worse than my bets: someone not making them. That person sure is never coming back when the body and brain rot and turns to dust. Anyway, if that is what you want, and you…

> I make bets. There is little profit to be found where there is no risk involved. Immortality is just that biggest profit possible, for which many risks must be taken. Every day carries the risk that your essential self will be destroyed - through a violent accident (even just a fall), a stroke, a disease... and every day, your mental capacity deteriorates slightly. If you are serious about taking on big risks for t…

That would be irrational. I would say the odds of my bet are 1 in 1000 maybe. If I stop enjoying the certain life I have now, the low probability of the bet are not good enough to compensate for that. I just try to not take too many risks. No MMA!

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#42
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't the answer the "how does cloned consciousness work" question. For re-vitilization, I don't give a fuck if it's a perfect copy of me walking around. I want it to be me , the current stream of consciousness. To the abyss I say, no thank you.

Better not go to sleep then. You woke up from the abyss this morning.

I have real deal insomnia for this exact reason.

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#43
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't the answer the "how does cloned consciousness work" question. For re-vitilization, I don't give a fuck if it's a perfect copy of me walking around. I want it to be me , the current stream of consciousness. To the abyss I say, no thank you.

I wonder where this strong intuition about consciousness comes from. Your "the current stream of consciousness" idea requires existence of something beyond all the information you have conscious access to and the procedures your brain performs. Namely, some "marker" which makes this particular realization of your consciousness unique, and which cannot be copied in any circumstances. What do you think this "marker" is…

Well, that's the question. Since theoretically if I can be reconstituted perfectly, I can be copied perfectly, it is more incomprehensible to me to that two identical consciousnesses exist (two Me's with a capital M) than it is that Me is unique somehow, I work from the second assumption. Questions that still need answering include "what about slow cellular replacement with electronic parts?", to which I have no answer.

What do you think the marker is?

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#44
No one wants to die. However it seems that it’s mostly powerful people truly believe it’s possible to escape death. Lawrence of Arabia, Walt Disney, and Peter Thiel come to mind as examples. Clearly there’s something about amassing a large amount of power in life that lends itself to believing you can overcome death.

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#45
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd give it roughly the same chance that I give the heads sitting in cryogenic storage being brought back to life: 0.

As a thought experiment, if you knew for certain that in a hundred years an individual who was long dead was brought back to life, and you had to guess whether the recently deceased was a cryogenic patient from 2018 or a mummified Emperor from antiquity - would you be ambivalent about the choices? If not, then you don't really think they're equally good paths to extra life.

Thought experiments of this kind are dissimilar to say Einstein fantasizing about elevators in that they do not yield insight over and beyond that which is already readily apparent. So rather than a thought experiment you should stick to real experiments and the experimental proof derived from there.

As it sits today the mummy and the frozen patient are both dead as a doornail and nothing in present day science will bring them back.

Keep in mind that if you want to play this game your best bet would be someone that's been freshly dead for about 20 minutes or so rather than the two cases you use to illustrate your point, and as long as that's not close to feasible the bet cryogenic people are making is really no different than believers sending their fortune to the church after death in order to be guaranteed a seat at the table in the afterlife.

Religion masquerading as science is more disgusting to me than mere religion, at least the latter are somewhat transparent about it all being fairy tales and fiction.

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where this strong intuition about consciousness comes from. Your "the current stream of consciousness" idea requires existence of something beyond all the information you have conscious access to and the procedures your brain performs. Namely, some "marker" which makes this particular realization of your consciousness unique, and which cannot be copied in any circumstances. What do you think this "marker" is…

Well, that's the question. Since theoretically if I can be reconstituted perfectly, I can be copied perfectly, it is more incomprehensible to me to that two identical consciousnesses exist (two Me's with a capital M) than it is that Me is unique somehow, I work from the second assumption. Questions that still need answering include "what about slow cellular replacement with electronic parts?", to which I have no answ…

I think there's no marker. Both instances of you feel like each of them is you, if the copying was sufficiently faithful.

Concepts of the original and the copy are external to them. When you imagine the situation you take a place of external observer who has the information about who is the original and who is the copy.

ETA: It's something like imaging your death. You cannot truthfully imagine it first person, and (imperceptibly) slip into third person view.

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#47

To me fear of death is a sign of not really having been born yet. If you can't make 50 years worthwhile, you can't make 50000 years worthwhile, and if you can't cope with being limited to 80 years or so, you will not be able to cope with the heat death of the universe. It also stands to reason that if you feel it's impossible to give up 100 years of grown personality and memories, it will be even harder and more pain…

"the only way to ensure you will live "forever" is to severely restrict the agency of anyone else but you."

Such a lack of imagination. What about virtual worlds where you're ego would be uploaded, leaving no physical remains to be fed? What about changing you're body for something that don't need to eat food? What about the tremendous immensity and ressources of space that await colonization? What about being able to go to deep sleep and live 50 years every 500 or so? I could go on "forever".

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#48

No one wants to die. However it seems that it’s mostly powerful people truly believe it’s possible to escape death. Lawrence of Arabia, Walt Disney, and Peter Thiel come to mind as examples. Clearly there’s something about amassing a large amount of power in life that lends itself to believing you can overcome death.

Maybe they've seen in life that if you try you can maybe achieve stuff ? And when you have billion you don't lose anything by spending some of it in high-risk/high-reward projects.

Re: The Art of Not Dying: the First Emperor’s Pursuit of Immortality

#49
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as rigorous and evidence-backed as the people claiming they will save your head for the future to bring it back (or some construct of you).

Go look it up; they aren't claiming that. You're fighting a strawman. What they are claiming that they are preserving some record of the information that makes you up on the hope that it would be sufficient for future engineers to reconstruct some version of you. All they are claiming is that cryonic vitrification or aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation preserves in an information-theory sense the microstructure of t…

> What they are claiming that they are preserving some record of the information that makes you up on the hope that it would be sufficient for future engineers to reconstruct some version of you.

Yes, that's what they are claiming, but there is zero proof this is going to happen. In fact, given the long term stability of real world artifacts that are far more durable than dewar flasks there are substantial obstacles in the way of success here besides the non-viable scientific parts of it.

The whole point is that this is a 'hope' about as useful as the hope that there is a heaven or a life after death.

Death is final, until proven otherwise, and once if it is proven that it isn't we will know the pre-conditions required for successful preservation.

Keep in mind that freezing the brain actually destroys it further, the resulting structures may look like they still preserve information when in fact they probably won't, just like a frozen and then thawed out steak still looks like the original but has structurally been completely altered.

> All they are claiming is that cryonic vitrification or aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation preserves in an information-theory sense the microstructure of the brain to sufficient detail that the connectome can be reconstructed by physically realizable scanning mechanisms, which we might not have now but are permitted by the laws of physics.

The laws of physics have little to do with it, it all depends on how much - if anything - of value is still present and recoverable from dead tissue. So far there is no proof that high level constructs such as memories and identity would be preserved through such a cycle.

> That's a much weaker argument, but one which actually IS supported by actual scientific papers in the field.

Actual scientific papers are not the equivalent of proof, they are merely the advancement of theories in the scientific sense, lacking - for now - evidence supporting those theories.

Cryonics organizations are very careful to ride that fine line between selling hope and selling bull-shit. They have to because that's where the gullible nerds will be more than happy to part with their money.

The short version of all this is:

Hope Springs Eternal.

And hope for an eternal life is common to Catholics looking for salvation, uploaders, cryogenic preservers and rapture kooks. And they all have another thing in common too: they all die anyway, just like everybody and everything else that is alive.

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