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A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

quantamagazine.org

41–46 of 46 posts

Re: A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

#41

I've held this theory on my own after experiencing geometric shapes while hallucinating after smoking a lot of marijuana years back. I sat down closed my eyes and experienced an intense feeling of flying through what I can only explain as the starfield screen saver from Windows but with colored 2D shapes heavily dominated by hexagons of various sizes. During that experience I realized that I might be experiencing the…

I often joke (but dont take serious at all) that addictive smokable plants are addictive due to natural selection:

Most people I know who either smoke tobacco or marihuana, are addicted to either and can smoke the other without getting addicted. In my case I am addicted to nicotine, and I like smoking weed but never get addicted to it. I.e. one addiction is sufficient. But for what?

Another observation is that individuals that never smoke don't feel addicted, i.e. there is no innate attraction towards a substance, only after using it for a while.

Any smoker knows that after a while you need to smoke again.

The jokke/hypothesis is as follows: fire was important for human survival, tribes with fire were at an advantage over tribes without fire. Yet smoking is not healthy. The tribe only needs a few members to keep the fire going, so instead of innate attraction to keep the fire going (which would be unhealthy to each member of the group), only people who are initiated by the current fire-man get addicted, but should get addicted lest they not neglect the fire (i.e. a biological timer reminding you to inhale from the portable pipe). This way nomadic tribes that had a propensity for addiction had access to fire and its applications, and the tribe survived better than those tribes that could not get addicted (and occasionally lost their fire, possibly executing the specific fire-man at fault, a selection pressure).

I say joke, and that I don't take it serious for multiple reasons: species that probably never benefitted from fire -like spiders- feel the effects off say nicotine.

Another hole in the theory is that tobacco was imported after the discovery of the new world. But I can immagine other plants having fulfilled similar roles.

Re: A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

#42
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've mentioned this before on HN, but I don't understand why SAH is seen as a "solid" theory. Psychedelics might increase some cognitive or perceptual faculties, but McKenna never gives any physical mechanics for how this could possibly lead to genetic alteration, i.e. how it creates any selection pressure for intelligence.

Intelligence isn't only influenced by genetics, but also by how an animal (human or not) is reared. If you raise a dog in complete social isolation (not even human contact) it will be unable to cope in the outside world. The same applies to people, if a baby is raised with no interaction, they will not be capable of functioning as a normal human. There's a very well written, Pulitzer Prize winning article on one such…

But the SAH is supposed to explain the sudden growth in brain size, which is a genetic change in the history of the human species.

Re: A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

#43
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of the theory, but there's a big conceptual leap between paragraphs 6 and 7 which McKenna never addresses. Why should the presence of psychedelics change mating strategies so as to select specifically for larger brain size?

So this is the part of evolutionary theory that can never really give up the ghost. There are non-deterministic/non-linear forces at work, which may or may not divulge direct evidence of sequential events. Why did some primates emerge with brains twice the size of their ancestors, over many thousands of generations, during the course of several million years? This hypothesis can only fit inside the huge knowledge gap…

Let me get this straight. You think the SAH is a plausible hypothesis for the sudden growth in brain size, but you agree that it fails to explain or provide a mechanism for favouring genes for larger brain size?

Re: A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

#44
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the stoned ape theory. I don't believe that at all. But the overall theory of geometric shapes and the relationship with the interworkings of our brain.

Sorry, I misread your comment. My bad.

Yea, that was a crappy sentence to begin with.

Re: A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

#45
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is the part of evolutionary theory that can never really give up the ghost. There are non-deterministic/non-linear forces at work, which may or may not divulge direct evidence of sequential events. Why did some primates emerge with brains twice the size of their ancestors, over many thousands of generations, during the course of several million years? This hypothesis can only fit inside the huge knowledge gap…

Let me get this straight. You think the SAH is a plausible hypothesis for the sudden growth in brain size, but you agree that it fails to explain or provide a mechanism for favouring genes for larger brain size?

Plausible is too weak a word, and "failing to explain or provide a mechanism" is too damning and dismissive.

I'm saying we may never know the real story, in that no single theory might ever accumulate enough backing evidence to be proven correct, by virtue of the processes being examined. SAH operates in a space where we may only find utility in thought experiments.

I can see one or two points of evidence emerging, that could simply blow SAH to bits and put the nail in the coffin of debate. But just as easily, I could see a fossil jump out of the ground, and upend our thinking overnight. The evolutionary tale of human prehistory is that brittle, based on what we have in front of us right now.

The only ways I see SAH being proven, are forward looking replication of results, or longshot statistical truths, found in subtle clues which are very hard to measure, all in one place. Meanwhile, literally any other theory could burst onto the scene with a stronger, more convincing and reasonable narrative, and bury SAH so deep in its own wild and extraordinary whimsy that we never think about it again. But neither has happened yet, so we can still navel gaze on this one.

But, take anything you want. Any externality, leveraging selective pressure, but leaving scant traces of ever even having happened, and you've got a good competing hypothesis with legs under it. Instead of psychoactive substances, why not body lice, for example, as a selective externality? Although less charismatic than SAH, just as reasonable of a story, but just as tough to tease out a smoking gun.

How would body lice influence circumstances favoring for genetic brain size? We might easily hypothesize an illness spread by one kind of louse, whereby the head lice versus the body lice is the deciding factor to produce the selective brain outcome in the same time span. But why the bigger brain on the other side of it? Same as with SAH, the brain size could be an incidental trait. That's the way bottlenecks, invasive species explosions and fitness arms races work in evolution. Some outcomes are non-deterministic, so we never get satisfying proof.

Re: A Mathematical Theory for Why People Hallucinate

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight. You think the SAH is a plausible hypothesis for the sudden growth in brain size, but you agree that it fails to explain or provide a mechanism for favouring genes for larger brain size?

Plausible is too weak a word, and " failing to explain or provide a mechanism " is too damning and dismissive. I'm saying we may never know the real story, in that no single theory might ever accumulate enough backing evidence to be proven correct, by virtue of the processes being examined. SAH operates in a space where we may only find utility in thought experiments. I can see one or two points of evidence emerging,…

If you are able to keep things precise, please could you tell me how the ingestion of psychedelics might cause larger brain sizes to be favoured? For example, would it mean that individuals with larger brains are more likely to mate or to survive?
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