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The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

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Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#41

Post by sidlls »

BurningFrog wrote: post #26
Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

Free (except for the cost of bandwidth/internet access, including devices), instantly (unless internet service is poor or inconsistent or both), and anywhere (that has internet access), you mean.

There's nothing improved about the argument, it's just obfuscated better.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#42

Post by pbhjpbhj »

dmreedy wrote: post #25
pixl97 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Pretty much the tech version of "I am a W.A.S.P., I pretend everybody that has different economic, social, and cultural differences from me doesn't exist"

or, more typically in my experience, (and somewhat more worryingly), "I don't understand that people with economic, social, and cultural differences exist". To paraphrase Eddie Izzard, it's like the traveling Briton visiting Afghanistan. "Sausage, egg and chips please... you do speak English, you just don't try!"

Izzard - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GkjwfrJo6uc#

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#43

Post by ikeyany »

maym86 wrote: post #5

I'm sick of people going after things they don't use or understand that are valuable to people of lesser means while spewing the efficiencies of the free market. Amazon only makes as much money as it does because it manages to avoid paying tax while utilizing the infrastructure built and maintained by collecting taxes.

This is a Prime example of why tech workers are despised outside of our bubble.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#44

Post by ashelmire »

rayiner wrote: post #32
ashelmire wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we cite third world nations and past human history? Or do you want a detailed list of every time that lack of education or information negatively affected individuals, regions, economies, or governments? The list would be several billion lines long and no human could possibly compile it. I'm sure r/AskHistorians could give you a list of some of the more entertaining examples if you're interested.

OP didn't just assert that education has a value, but that it is "almost invaluable." In this context, we're talking about the marginal returns from more education compared to the marginal costs. I'm asking for evidence that, for our society, the marginal benefit from more education exceeds the marginal cost.

Just in economic terms, the value of education is pretty clear:

https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unemployment-earnings-educatio...

The value in terms of other benefits (which save financially and in other, more difficult to measure ways) is also pretty clear:

https://eml.berkeley.edu/~moretti/lm46.pdf

That's the end of the free research I'll do to prove you wrong, because frankly, it's extremely obvious to me and everyone else here that you're a troll and education is valuable to society and has a positive return on investment. Use google yourself, do a thorough investigation, or you aren't worth a damn.

It also occurs to me that you don't understand the meaning of the word "invaluable". Here's help: https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/invaluable

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#45

Post by smt88 »

rayiner wrote: post #18
larkeith wrote: post #7

Personally, I cannot fathom finding it preferable, or even acceptable, for Amazon to attempt to displace my local library; Much like bookstores, there's an essential soul to them any corporate invader like Amazon lacks utterly. I have fond memories of summers spent trawling the stacks, afternoons at a table with friends working on homework, DnD sessions in the private meeting rooms, and browsing old stock auctions fo…

Expenditure of public money on an endeavor should not be driven by romantic notions like whether something has "essential soul." Tax money is a scarce resource. Money that's spent on libraries is tax money that's not available to offer better lunches to needy children. That's the calculus. Our county library system gets $22 million a year in tax dollars to service 2.4 million visits. Could Amazon meet those needs mor…

Librarians at public libraries offer assistance to poor people who don't know how to use a computer and apply for jobs. They don't just wrangle books.

Amazon couldn't and shouldn't do this type of work.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#46

Post by nicodjimenez »

jerkstate wrote: post #6

When I was a young child, the library was a place for me to go to sit on a beanbag and read childrens books for hours while my mom studied for her masters degree. Now 2/3 of library patrons are homeless or struggling with addiction, and some parents may not wish to leave their children unattended in such an environment. I don't think Amazon has the answers but I see a natural tension between welcoming vagrants and ma…

Libraries: free internet for winos

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#48

Post by TimJYoung »

rayiner wrote: post #18
larkeith wrote: post #7

Personally, I cannot fathom finding it preferable, or even acceptable, for Amazon to attempt to displace my local library; Much like bookstores, there's an essential soul to them any corporate invader like Amazon lacks utterly. I have fond memories of summers spent trawling the stacks, afternoons at a table with friends working on homework, DnD sessions in the private meeting rooms, and browsing old stock auctions fo…

Expenditure of public money on an endeavor should not be driven by romantic notions like whether something has "essential soul." Tax money is a scarce resource. Money that's spent on libraries is tax money that's not available to offer better lunches to needy children. That's the calculus. Our county library system gets $22 million a year in tax dollars to service 2.4 million visits. Could Amazon meet those needs mor…

As someone that obviously is a proponent of free markets, you should also be aware of the fact that granting a monopoly to a 3rd party to offer government services isn't exactly a recipe for lower costs.

Put another way: when's the last time you saw Amazon, or a company like Amazon, do something out of the "goodness of their heart" ?

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#49

Post by dsr_ »

nxc18 wrote: post #33
BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

As they exist today: free access to computers and internet. Information is only literally free and instant if you have access to the internet, which isn't gauranteed especially for low income people.

In many places, libraries provide free access to computers and the Internet, especially for but in no way limited to low income people. Libraries adapt to the times, you know.

And they still have books.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#50

Post by ironjunkie »

I think there is a growing sentiment of disdain of Silicon Valley and tech in general. And I can see why, and it is getting more and more justified.

As this article states, that arrogance to think that everything should/can be "disrupted". Usually the argument for disruption is always around another version of "making the world a better place", while it is very clear that the main motivation is to make a couple tech CEOs and tech workers even richer.

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