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Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

kvonhorn.github.io

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Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#41

Post by soci »

wonderwonder wrote: post #5

I got an email from a local recruiter a few weeks ago and stepped outside during my lunch break to give her a call. On the initial phone call she asked me where I worked currently. After the call I stepped back into my work where I sit back to back with my manager. No more than 5 minutes later his phone rings, its the recruiter calling to see if they have any need of her services. I emailed her while he was on the ph…

I ran small recruitment agency for one year long (never again! terrible sharks industry). During that time I saw many non-ethical tactics used by other agencies. Some recruiters would do what you explain for one of the the following reasons:

a) to blackmail the company in the likes of “I won’t touch your employees if you recruit using my services from now on”.

b) already had a signed agreement with your employeer which didn’t allow the recruitment agency to “touch” any of its employees. You seemed like a match for their new client and the recruiter was checking if your employer agreement was still valid. Of course, this is also seen as blackmail by companies.

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#42

Post by vonmoltke »

jopsen wrote: post #31

Is there really any reason not to just walk around an external recruiter? I had an external recruiter contact me for a position at big-tech-giant, but if was really going to apply for it, why wouldn't I just apply at their careers page? Or email a former co-worker who works at big-tech-giant and ask to be hooked up with a recruiter? I'm curious, what are the upsides to working with an external recruiter?

> why wouldn't I just apply at their careers page?

My experience has been that this is largely a black hole.

> Or email a former co-worker who works at big-tech-giant and ask to be hooked up with a recruiter?

Great plan, if you have former co-workers at companies you want to work for.

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#43

Post by roburtguy »

Personally, I don't think this is that big a deal. If you're a good engineer, there really is no shortage of opportunities. If you're not a good engineer, then that is the root problem that should be fixed. For me, recruiters are just people who helps me do the logistics work so that I never had to apply for a job.

"To this day, I don’t know what the recruiter said to my former manager, but I do know that my manager called me up pissed off about the phone call he’d received, and told me to not use him as a reference in the future."

I think that's a bad manager. As a manager, especially in tech, you should definitely expect your co-workers to take the best opportunity available. As a professional, the manager him/herself should also take the best opportunity available. It's people's careers, be professional about it.

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#44

Post by nashashmi »

patorjk wrote: post #16

> I do know that my manager called me up pissed off about the phone call he’d received, and told me to not use him as a reference in the future. It's also important for your references to know that they're your references ahead of time. You may think you have a good relationship with someone only to discover that they aren't a reliable positive reference. People also don't like being caught off guard.

Anecdote: I once listed three references. All three had favorable opinions of me. But I didn't tell any of them and they were unprepared to answer the questions that followed in a reference call.

One of them was able to wing it well. Second one answered questions flatly and without enthusiasm. A third was more nervous not to hurt me than he was confident he could help me with his answers.

I thought the surprise effect would be telling to my interviewers that the answers were not artificial.

Looking back, in a world where all interviews are artificial, why was I trying so hard to be different?

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#45

Post by JavaAndChill »

jopsen wrote: post #31

Is there really any reason not to just walk around an external recruiter? I had an external recruiter contact me for a position at big-tech-giant, but if was really going to apply for it, why wouldn't I just apply at their careers page? Or email a former co-worker who works at big-tech-giant and ask to be hooked up with a recruiter? I'm curious, what are the upsides to working with an external recruiter?

Often people one hear about a job because it’s advertised by a recruiter and they don’t tell you the company’s name until you agree not to apply there yourself.

A recruiter can control the process better than an applicant can, and they prepare you for every interview, and (try to) influence the process by selling in your advantages after the interview.

They’re also often in contact with the hiring manager instead of the HR person.

Those might be reasons to work with them, but there’s also a good amount of reasons why it’s not a great idea

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#47

Post by scandox »

gtirloni wrote: post #25
mathattack wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still worth doing even if there’s a just a small chance of turning something up. The only time I haven’t seen it be useful is employee referrals.

Honest question: what do you hope to find? As a source of information, references were hand selected by the person with an interest in getting selected, they will like be prepped on what to say, they have zero investment in your company's success, etc.

It's amazing what you get if you just stay on the phone with the reference. People want to talk. They want to say something meaningful. Once the cliches are dispensed with they're forced to say something real and at that point you get to find out the real type of person you're looking at.

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#48

Post by jrockway »

I've never had anyone call my references. The most anyone has ever wanted is a W-2 form to prove I worked there.

I think it would be kind of unusual. What's the incentive to give an unbiased reference for free? If I didn't like someone, I'd say "oh yeah, they're great", because it's not my problem and I don't want to be held accountable for the person not getting a job. If they are great, I'd say the same thing, of course. The truly calculating individual would get a request for a reference and think "wow, I could poach this person from the recruiter by giving them a poor reference and hiring them for less than their market value."

I just don't see how references are A Thing. Maybe I'm just cynical.

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#49

Post by trevor-e »

ageitgey wrote: post #37
patorjk wrote: post #16

> I do know that my manager called me up pissed off about the phone call he’d received, and told me to not use him as a reference in the future. It's also important for your references to know that they're your references ahead of time. You may think you have a good relationship with someone only to discover that they aren't a reliable positive reference. People also don't like being caught off guard.

This is so important! Story time: I once hired someone as a Mid/Senior Dev at a large company in SV who had strong dev skills. Everything seemed great at first and we were very excited to have this person join the team. I respected this dev and had no personal issues with them. Our interactions were positive. However this person quit suddenly after maybe two weeks because they didn't like having to justify their tech…

Are you legally allowed to mention that? I thought references could only verify if you worked for the company, or otherwise risk being sued. Maybe that's a myth? Regardless, it's pretty odd he would put your company down as a reference after only staying two weeks.

Re: Don't Provide Your References to a Recruiter Until After Your Last Interview

#50

Post by john_moscow »

ageitgey wrote: post #37
patorjk wrote: post #16

> I do know that my manager called me up pissed off about the phone call he’d received, and told me to not use him as a reference in the future. It's also important for your references to know that they're your references ahead of time. You may think you have a good relationship with someone only to discover that they aren't a reliable positive reference. People also don't like being caught off guard.

This is so important! Story time: I once hired someone as a Mid/Senior Dev at a large company in SV who had strong dev skills. Everything seemed great at first and we were very excited to have this person join the team. I respected this dev and had no personal issues with them. Our interactions were positive. However this person quit suddenly after maybe two weeks because they didn't like having to justify their tech…

Wouldn't it be the team lead's responsibility to look out for possible conflicts in the team and to act as a mediator?
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