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Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

nytimes.com

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Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#41

Post by baybal2 »

krapht wrote: post #7
RamshackleJ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing IP mostly helps manufacturing, It doesn't really help innovation. If they want to build up their semiconductor industry they need to steal the people who are creating IP, which is kinda the opposite of what is happening. the culture that creates new tech is something that china can't steal and it can't replicate it without giving up authoritarian rule.

People write this glibly without understanding history. Soviet Russia made great leaps in science and technology where it was a national priority. You can have academic freedom in most scientific disciplines without the political freedom to criticize the government.

>Soviet Russia made great leaps in science and technology

Yes, we sent rockets to the moon, but an average Ivan couldn't have proper plumbing in his apartment.

Those great leaps were made in things without real life value.

P.R. China on other hand, can't be bothered with "prestige project." The only thing that can bother a government official here is money. And money undoubtedly have value in everyday life... unlike moon rovers.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#42

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

forapurpose wrote: post #31
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the same culture that sends tidal waves of students to American universities to earn Ph.Ds, and because of our piss-poor immigration system, most of them have to go back home with all of that valuable education and use it in China or India or wherever instead of the USA.

The U.S. helps to educate and provide opportunity to people, regardless of national origin - regardless of the arbitrary, invisible lines on a map, drawn by the powerful, in which they were born. Partly as a result, the greatest economic miracle in history has occurred since WWII (and especially since the end of the Cold War), with hundreds of millions of people pulled from millennia of hopeless, abject poverty. Anot…

Your comment is excellent, and I agree with everything you say.

I will retort, however, that we Americans should not take our technological dominance for granted, just as a precious generation of carmakers and related industries had to learn what happens when foreign competitors (especially with government support) eat up domestic markets that companies like Ford and GM thought belonged to them forever.

I’m not suggesting that in 20 years Americans will do all their social networking on RenRen or shopping on Alibaba, but there are many, many high tech companies most people have never heard of, churning out profits and paying the taxes that support our society. The more talented, US-educated non-citizens we turn away after graduation, the harder it is for domestic high tech firms to form and hire.

And another thing to note: just because the rest of the world is getting wealthier doesn’t mean they’ll share our values. The biggest geopolitical fucky-wucky of the post-Cold War era was the assumption that Chinese people would demand more freedoms like we have in the West as their living standards approach ours.

China owns A LOT of Hollywood. How many big budget films these days criticize China or make them the bad guys? I grew up watching films that stamped “Russian” and “villain” as inseparable qualities in my impressionable, young American mind - at least until 9/11 happened and the Russians and Arabs changed jerseys.

The economic development of China has been nothing short of a miracle for the hundreds of millions of poor farmers lifted out of extreme poverty, but at what cost to us?

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#43

Post by RamshackleJ »

jacquesm wrote: post #35
RamshackleJ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your opinions and your characterization of my argument. I didn't say people will not think about technological problems. Despite the incredible amount of good the party has done for the people of china they are still an authoritarian regime. I don't think authoritarian regimes are good at fostering innovation.

They don't need to be 'good' at anything, they just will move slower than an equivalent market based system but eventually they will get there. As long as the rest of the world out-innovates them they may not catch up but do not underestimate the power of over 1 billion people, especially not when a large number of them are very smart. Have a look at China 30 years ago and China today and tell me that that authoritar…

They are catching up, which is a net good for humanity. The highbred command/market economy and the focused bureaucracy of the Party have has been amazingly effective at industrializing and modernizing China. They have lifted many people out of poverty in a very short time.

Catching up and innovating are different though. There is so much structure and even culture in China that will make getting ahead in tech and science very difficult.

The protected industries and closed internet incentivizes making copy cat businesses. The lack of established academic institutions hurts research. Innovation depends on individuals, and the lack of individual freedoms does make staying in china less appealing to talented individuals.

I really, really hope china can become more open and democratic. That would be an amazing win for humanity. More opportunity and freedom for more people! For a while they seemed to be on the path to doing that but with Xi staying in power indefinitely I worry that what the powerful and rich want is at odds with what would be best for the population.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#44

Post by wishart_washy »

Notes from the ground here. My undergrad was in EE at an "elite" school - I can say definitively that ~50% of the MS/Ph.d. students in EE were from China (with the other 50% largely from India). They TA'd many of the graduate level courses and were the majority of the students taking high level semiconductor design courses that centered on fabrication and nanotechnology.

China's short term goal is clearly to reach parity so these students can enter a mature semiconductor industry. Give these students ~5-15 years to gain expertise from the American academic system and industrial research base and I think we'll start seeing China innovate.

American expertise will naturally decline because we don't have students studying EE. To many good full-stack jobs that pay ~40% more.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#45

Post by hotdog97 »

HillaryBriss wrote: post #18
Invictus0 wrote: post #8

Corporate and national espionage are as old as time, and senior leadership needs to wise up to this threat. China is running the most broad and sophisticated IP espionage campaign in history, and most companies think a 15m PowerPoint about not responding to phishing emails is sufficient protection against this. Until we get some strong legislation on corporate data security, this is just going to keep happening.

US corporations are willing players in this game. in exchange for their IP, US corporations are promised vast revenue from access to China's markets. the C-suite benefits. shareholders probably benefit. does the average US resident benefit?

Why should the average US resident benefit from what you describe? (I mean - what did they contribute?)

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#46

Post by darkmighty »

jacquesm wrote: post #35
RamshackleJ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your opinions and your characterization of my argument. I didn't say people will not think about technological problems. Despite the incredible amount of good the party has done for the people of china they are still an authoritarian regime. I don't think authoritarian regimes are good at fostering innovation.

They don't need to be 'good' at anything, they just will move slower than an equivalent market based system but eventually they will get there. As long as the rest of the world out-innovates them they may not catch up but do not underestimate the power of over 1 billion people, especially not when a large number of them are very smart. Have a look at China 30 years ago and China today and tell me that that authoritar…

Actually I'm not so sure if much would change (w.r.t. performance) if they switched to a more democratic regime.

In the end I were always a bit scared/reluctant about the US often touted ultimate justification for democratic capitalism that it is simply more efficient -- "Cultivate freedom -- after all, in the end it's just more efficient!". What if... it isn't?

China is turning the tables on this argument quite a bit. Heavy handed government control, aggressive state-sponsored corporate espionage, citizens surveillance and strict punishment of detractors, exploitation of workers, all combined with hand-picked aspects of market economy to lubricate the system. China is designing itself as an efficient economic machine with minimal regard for personal freedom or expression.

It's still unclear whether China will be able to achieve technological parity, but it's quite probable it will overtake the US as the foremost economy this century.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#47

Post by vkou »

wishart_washy wrote: post #44

Notes from the ground here. My undergrad was in EE at an "elite" school - I can say definitively that ~50% of the MS/Ph.d. students in EE were from China (with the other 50% largely from India). They TA'd many of the graduate level courses and were the majority of the students taking high level semiconductor design courses that centered on fabrication and nanotechnology. China's short term goal is clearly to reach pa…

Throughout the 20th century, the United States benefited greatly from this sort of knowledge drain, from war-torn Europe, and from the Soviet sphere of influence.

The trend is just reverting to the mean.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#48

Post by mahart »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #20
RamshackleJ wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing IP mostly helps manufacturing, It doesn't really help innovation. If they want to build up their semiconductor industry they need to steal the people who are creating IP, which is kinda the opposite of what is happening. the culture that creates new tech is something that china can't steal and it can't replicate it without giving up authoritarian rule.

It’s the same culture that sends tidal waves of students to American universities to earn Ph.Ds, and because of our piss-poor immigration system, most of them have to go back home with all of that valuable education and use it in China or India or wherever instead of the USA.

Just my personal anecdote but a vast majority of the Chinese students I've known do not want to stay after their degree. A couple have rattled off the statistics on the huge advantage they have in the job market back home with a degree from the US.

Not that I'm arguing against immigration reform, though. Just playing devil's advocate.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#49

Post by vkou »

baybal2 wrote: post #41
krapht wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People write this glibly without understanding history. Soviet Russia made great leaps in science and technology where it was a national priority. You can have academic freedom in most scientific disciplines without the political freedom to criticize the government.

>Soviet Russia made great leaps in science and technology Yes, we sent rockets to the moon, but an average Ivan couldn't have proper plumbing in his apartment. Those great leaps were made in things without real life value. P.R. China on other hand, can't be bothered with "prestige project." The only thing that can bother a government official here is money. And money undoubtedly have value in everyday life... unlike…

Meanwhile, in the United States, we can figure out how to send a robot to kill a family on the other side of the world, but we can't figure out how to supply drinking water in Flint.

Human welfare is always a priority that competes with 'national interests'.

Re: Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power

#50

Post by tzahola »

wishart_washy wrote: post #44

Notes from the ground here. My undergrad was in EE at an "elite" school - I can say definitively that ~50% of the MS/Ph.d. students in EE were from China (with the other 50% largely from India). They TA'd many of the graduate level courses and were the majority of the students taking high level semiconductor design courses that centered on fabrication and nanotechnology. China's short term goal is clearly to reach pa…

Well, if you EE guys would finally got off your high horses and dropped Verilog in favor of JavaScript, we wouldn’t have this kind of problem!!!
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