Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish • Hacker News Board

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#41

Post by candiodari » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #29

King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Obviously this is a long, long way from a functional brain being grown. But I have to wonder where the moral line is drawn when you're talking about growing an organ that (may-or-may-not) hold the ability to form a level of consciousness.

The quick answer is to say it's not ethical. But what if the brain is given full autonomy and ability to communicate with others and then let the brain decide if it wants an organic or machine body?

I don't think you should be so quick to call something moral or not. Let's take your statement and apply it to a few real life situations ...

So what you're saying is we should take anything with a brain, figure out what it's answer would be to "do you want to be alive ?" and then support that decision ?

Boy, you must hate abortion ...

(just saying that those things obviously have a brain, and every last kid on the planet will say they want to be alive, so those embryos being aborted can be easily assumed to either be conscious or at least said to be rapidly becoming conscious, and we can be likewise sure they want to be alive as well. Human embryos have functional brains 20 days after conception, which is just barely after a woman would become aware of a pregnancy, and we support abortion up to 6 months or even later, at which point a human embryo has a brain with more functional neurons than almost any animal on the planet, and more than every dog, cat, primate, dolphin)

(and just to defend this research, any research that gets us closer to being able to grow specific tissues - especially neural tissue - has the potential to alleviate the suffering of a great many people that have damaged nerves and/or brains)

But we all know how we judge morals in practice. Things that can complain get preference. Brains in jars won't complain. Nobody will ever make a picture of them showing big eyes behind bars. There will never be a scream or panic reaction available in full-color video of them. So they'll be abused, even tortured, even for very little gain. Because that's how humans judge morality ... in practice. If you believe otherwise, good luck explaining the morality of abortion.

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#42

Post by filoeleven » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Obviously this is a long, long way from a functional brain being grown. But I have to wonder where the moral line is drawn when you're talking about growing an organ that (may-or-may-not) hold the ability to form a level of consciousness.

The same question should be asked about research animals today then, as detailed in a sibling thread. “Brain grown on a dish” sounds preferable to “rat with a drilled skull.”

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#43

Post by dnadler » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

filoeleven wrote: post #42

King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Obviously this is a long, long way from a functional brain being grown. But I have to wonder where the moral line is drawn when you're talking about growing an organ that (may-or-may-not) hold the ability to form a level of consciousness.

The same question should be asked about research animals today then, as detailed in a sibling thread. “Brain grown on a dish” sounds preferable to “rat with a drilled skull.”

This question is asked and discussed rigorously any time a study that involves animal testing is proposed. At least it is in a scientific research setting in the US. There are boards dedicated to ensuring that the potential scientific benefit is sufficient to warrant whatever suffering the animals will endure. Obviously this is subjective, but the point is that these issues are considered in detail.

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#44

Post by sekh60 » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #7

alfredallan1 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may be so bold, I think that line will get pushed farther out every generation - who will simply accept past work as the then status quo ante. Just a hundred years back, cloning would have been considered morally reprehensible. Today, many people accept it as fact. Each generation only pushes the boundary just a bit (in the grand scheme of things) further; and only things far beyond the immediate realm of practi…

When was cloning considered morally reprehensible? By who's standard are you taking as an authority here?

I lack any citations, but I remember when I was young and there was a decent amount of talk of ethics on the news in Canada about Dolly the sheep.

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#45

Post by ericd » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #24

TomMarius wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be a misunderstanding. In many languages, there is one commonly used word that translates (out of context) to "wife", "unmarried partner" and "woman" at the same time.

אישה That's the word the Bible uses for Eve. It means all three words, as you've mentioned. Being biblical, this form of speech is not uncommon in many European and Middle Eastern cultures and languages.

This turned into an interesting thread, thanks for that bit of info!

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#46

Post by wincy » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #41

everdev wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quick answer is to say it's not ethical. But what if the brain is given full autonomy and ability to communicate with others and then let the brain decide if it wants an organic or machine body?

I don't think you should be so quick to call something moral or not. Let's take your statement and apply it to a few real life situations ... So what you're saying is we should take anything with a brain, figure out what it's answer would be to "do you want to be alive ?" and then support that decision ? Boy, you must hate abortion ... (just saying that those things obviously have a brain, and every last kid on the p…

Well said.

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#47

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #39

sandworm101 wrote: post #27

>>> "We're trying to recreate Neanderthal minds," Muotri says." Get the pitchforks. This scientist has gone too far. Really. I'm a totally against growing "minds" in jars. I'd be against doing this with any animal brain, let alone something functionally equivalent to human. There are ethical lines that shouldn't be crossed. The concept of a non-corporeal mind living a non-sensory existence in a jar of goo is too horr…

How exactly do you think scientists investigate which areas of animal (and human) brains are responsible for which functional area ? With humans it comes from papers describing the treatment of "brain trauma". Within animals, where the majority of research is done, depending on the animal, they just nail them to a board, or nail a board or a wire into their skull, cut out half the brain, insert some sensors, and reco…

The same ways they have done in the past. Persuit of knowledge isnt a free pass to do horrific things. We have rules and they follow them.

In the real world, most knowledge of human brain function has come from people with brain injuries or disorders. For anything above basic motor skills you want a subject you can talk to.

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#48

Post by vinchuco » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 8:31 PM UTC

King-Aaron wrote: post #3

Obviously this is a long, long way from a functional brain being grown. But I have to wonder where the moral line is drawn when you're talking about growing an organ that (may-or-may-not) hold the ability to form a level of consciousness.

https://youtu.be/vjuQRCG_sUw

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#49

Post by lostlogin » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

conception wrote: post #20

lostlogin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surveys of populations have been shown opposition to the idea too. The idea that the Catholic Church might be considered a moral authority to any significant number of people is troubling. https://news.gallup.com/poll/5098/americans-oppose-idea-huma... https://news.gallup.com/poll/5098/americans-oppose-idea-huma...

"The idea that the Catholic Church might be considered a moral authority to any significant number of people is troubling." You mean outside of the 1.2 billion Catholics?

No, them specifically. The recent developments in Ireland seem to me to be a result of people questions the word of that institution, and that’s a good thing.

Re: Neanderthal ‘minibrains’ grown in dish

#50

Post by everdev » Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 11:51 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #41

everdev wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quick answer is to say it's not ethical. But what if the brain is given full autonomy and ability to communicate with others and then let the brain decide if it wants an organic or machine body?

I don't think you should be so quick to call something moral or not. Let's take your statement and apply it to a few real life situations ... So what you're saying is we should take anything with a brain, figure out what it's answer would be to "do you want to be alive ?" and then support that decision ? Boy, you must hate abortion ... (just saying that those things obviously have a brain, and every last kid on the p…

Yes abortion has serious moral questions. In that case the brain is being grown inside another human body connected to another brain. That's a far different moral question than a brain being grown by itself in a lab.

When my rights negatively impact your rights it's a moral dilemma. In a lab though, there's no affect in another person's rights by keeping the brain alive, no host body being affected, no physical/emotional pain, no financial responsibilities and no parenting role to factor in.

That's why it seems immoral to me to create a conscious brain and then destroy it or make decisions without it's consent because it only seems like the brain's rights are bring affected. Abortion is more complex because it involves the rights of two brains.