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A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

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Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#41

Post by joker3 »

extr wrote: post #19

HN is predisposed to hate R because everyone here is coming from a "real" programming context. Their concerns are generally valid, but they should keep in mind a lot of people using do not have a software development background and do not care that the language is not elegantly designed: they just want to get analytical work done. In that respect, R is far, far superior to Python. Even something as simple as installi…

The thing to keep in mind is that, from the point of view of someone who works with data, R isn't a programming language. It's a statistical software package that has a programming language. Its competitors are things like Minitab, SPSS, Stata, and JMP, all of which used to be entirely menu-driven. R was a genuine innovation when it was first introduced.

Now it's certainly showing its age and the limits of its design, but it's still best in class for a certain kind of user. We could do better for software development, but it's not clear that doing so would actually make data analysis easier.

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#42

Post by oblong »

R-studio is one of the best IDEs, period.

Documentation? R is the only ecosystem that require good documentation to submit modules to the central repository (CRAN).

The language itself is hairy, with multiple, incompatible object systens, but there is a modern refined subset, just like with Perl and C++.

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#43

Post by [deleted] »

extr wrote: post #19

HN is predisposed to hate R because everyone here is coming from a "real" programming context. Their concerns are generally valid, but they should keep in mind a lot of people using do not have a software development background and do not care that the language is not elegantly designed: they just want to get analytical work done. In that respect, R is far, far superior to Python. Even something as simple as installi…

[deleted]

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#44

Post by Giroflex »

extr wrote: post #19

HN is predisposed to hate R because everyone here is coming from a "real" programming context. Their concerns are generally valid, but they should keep in mind a lot of people using do not have a software development background and do not care that the language is not elegantly designed: they just want to get analytical work done. In that respect, R is far, far superior to Python. Even something as simple as installi…

> Even something as simple as installing a library is a conceptual leap for these people (why wouldn't the software just come with everything needed to work?). > Have you ever tried explaining the various python package and environment management options to someone with a background in Excel/SQL?

I don't understand the difficulty I've often seen voiced against this. Why would a newbie or someone who just wants to get analytical work done need anything beyond installing Python and doing `pip install library`? It's certainly orders of magnitude easier and faster than, say, using a C library. The only trouble I can see a newbie running into is if they want to install a library which doesn't have precompiled wheels and they need some dependencies to build it, but that's rarely an issue for popular packages.

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#45

Post by riskneutral »

bokstavkjeks wrote: post #32
extr wrote: post #19

HN is predisposed to hate R because everyone here is coming from a "real" programming context. Their concerns are generally valid, but they should keep in mind a lot of people using do not have a software development background and do not care that the language is not elegantly designed: they just want to get analytical work done. In that respect, R is far, far superior to Python. Even something as simple as installi…

It's also worth noting that R becomes much more pleasurable with the Tidyverse libraries. The pipe alone makes everything more readable. I'm also coming from more of an office setting where everything is in Excel. I've used R to reorganize and tidy up Excel files a lot. Ggplot2 (part of the Tidyverse) is also fantastic for plotting, the grammar of graphics makes it really easy to make nice and slightly complex graphs…

Tidy features (like pipes) are detrimental to performance. The best things R has going for it are data.table, ggplot, stringr, RMarkdown, RStudio, and the massive, unmatched breadth and depth of special-purpose statistics libraries. Combined, this is a formidable and highly performant toolset for data analytics workflows, and I can say with some certainty that even though “base Python” might look prettier than “base R,” the combination of Python and NumPy is not necessarily more powerful or even a more elegant syntax. The data.table syntax is quite convenient and powerful, even if it does not produce the same “warm fuzzy” feeling that pipes might. NumPy syntax is just as clunky as anything in R, if not worse, largely because NumPy was not part of the base Python design (as opposed to languages like R and MATLAB that were designed for data frames and matrices).

What is probably not a good idea (which the article unfortunately does) is to introduce people to R by talking about data.frame without mentioning data.table. Just as an example, the article mentions read.table, which is a very old R function which will be very slow on large files. The right answer is to use fread and data.table, and if you are new to R then get the hangs of these early on so that you don’t waste a lot of time using older, essentially obsolete parts of the language.

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#46

Post by Thriptic »

extr wrote: post #19

HN is predisposed to hate R because everyone here is coming from a "real" programming context. Their concerns are generally valid, but they should keep in mind a lot of people using do not have a software development background and do not care that the language is not elegantly designed: they just want to get analytical work done. In that respect, R is far, far superior to Python. Even something as simple as installi…

I actually totally agree with this. I learned how to program in R and found it to be quite wonderful to use as a noob. As you say, shit just works. If you think you should be able to do an operation, you typically can. To this day I still prefer cleaning and doing proof of concept analyses in R rather than Python. It's so much easier than having to fuck with pandas and numpy.

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#48

Post by chrfrasco »

dxbydt wrote: post #34

I don’t hate R as much as I hate universities insisting on mandatory use of R for all comp-stat courses. This to my mind verges on civil rights infringements. Bear in mind we aren’t talking about a private institution such as a company, where when you sign on as a dev for a paycheck, you do so voluntarily, knowing that the company uses X language and you won’t have a choice in the matter. In a public university, stud…

> This to my mind verges on civil rights infringements

You're funny!

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#49

Post by curiousgal »

riskneutral wrote: post #45
bokstavkjeks wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that R becomes much more pleasurable with the Tidyverse libraries. The pipe alone makes everything more readable. I'm also coming from more of an office setting where everything is in Excel. I've used R to reorganize and tidy up Excel files a lot. Ggplot2 (part of the Tidyverse) is also fantastic for plotting, the grammar of graphics makes it really easy to make nice and slightly complex graphs…

Tidy features (like pipes) are detrimental to performance. The best things R has going for it are data.table, ggplot, stringr, RMarkdown, RStudio, and the massive, unmatched breadth and depth of special-purpose statistics libraries. Combined, this is a formidable and highly performant toolset for data analytics workflows, and I can say with some certainty that even though “base Python” might look prettier than “base…

From your experience what makes data.table so useful?

Re: A newcomer’s (angry) guide to R

#50

Post by wdkrnls »

I don't understand why HN hates R. HN loves lisp, and R as a language shares a much greater affinity with lisp languages than python or Go do. The language was born out of the original authors reading SICP (as statisticians). Sure, many of the users of R molded it to look like what they were used to (S), but that just highlights the powerful metaprogramming capabilities of the language.
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