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Remote Only

remoteonly.org

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Re: Remote Only

#41

Post by existencebox »

nemothekid wrote: post #38
existencebox wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't share your pessimism about the list of downsides, and am honestly surprised, as while normally I chuckle at the "HN is always negative" sentiment, this post being the top reply is a real head scratcher, as someone who is both 1. on a >75% remote team, and 2. who has been advocating/watching HN advocate for remote for quite some time. I'd say "missing real human contacts" is summarized well under a combination…

> I don't mean to be dismissive, but "that seems like a personal problem." This is incredibly dismissive. Almost all the "advantages for employees" are personal. How is "No commuting time or stress" not a personal benefit? The advantages for remote work are almost entirely being sold that they are better for people . If someone has a personal problem with an aspect of it, then it should be taken seriously. Imagine if…

Where do we draw the line though? Do we draw the line? At what point do my personal preferences/issues (and trust me I have plenty of my own) become my team's/workplace's problem? I certainly fall closer to the side of "it's my job as a professional to find a situation that doesn't drive me nuts", which is probably where our disagreement might arise. (Candidly, and unfortunately, it's probably born out of the pragmatic "a job don't owe you nothing" upbringing)

You aptly point out that "no commuting or stress" is a personal benefit; to play devils advocate with that, wouldn't having a "typical job" then be "dismissive" in not catering to someone who might be incredibly sensitive to the commute? I bring up this contrast since I think a lot of the friction with remote is that it's a change from the status quo, not necessarily that the status quo doesn't incur its own comparable (if inverted) costs.

Let me try and rephrase my point better, regardless. I don't think there's a one size fits all, period. Some people simply want/like/work better in some environments than others, and to paint these often personally-aligned preferences as generic pros/cons, we muddy the waters.

You asked the question at the end re: a boss telling me that about my commute. Honestly, yes, this has happened to me. And I switched teams, to the one I'm currently on, which is extremely remote friendly. I don't mean to whitewash remote work for any given person or say that everyone has such a lucky opportunity, I see it as two sides to the same coin, in which we shouldn't assume highly-granular personal choices to be a global downside to remote work, and we should enable as many opportunities for that choice to be present as possible.

Edit: After rereading my posts, I'll concede that "personal problem" may not have been the best way to put it, and comes off as far too accusatory. I want to delineate between problems I expect a professional adult to be able to understand their own exposure to and handle via their own autonomy, vs problems that are only in the purview of the workplace to solve/that we can't expect individuals to navigate feasibly.

Re: Remote Only

#42

Post by enraged_camel »

chpmrc wrote: post #21
hartator wrote: post #6

> Disadvantages > Scares investors - Scares some partners - Scares some customers - Scares some potential employees, mostly senior non-technical hires - Onboarding is harder, first month feels lonely We do a full remote policy at SerpApi.com, however I found this disadvantages list a bit dishonest, they are more way numerous and important, the most obvious are missing real human contacts (and it doesn't get easier wi…

This assumes that the only place a remote worker can work from is their home. There is nothing more detrimental to a person's psyche. Cafes and coworking spaces are the most obvious and effective solution to this problem. I made countless friends while working remotely and a good 90% of them I met in a coworking space (and the so called "digital nomad" community is made of some really awesome people). Plus you have t…

I got a 3 monitor setup at home, which basically quadrupled my productivity. I now work from coffee shops only if I’m doing “shallow work” - lots of small tasks, none of which requires deep thinking. For example if I need to answer a bunch of emails I’ll do that from a coffee shop.

Re: Remote Only

#43

Post by ludston »

existencebox wrote: post #41
nemothekid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mean to be dismissive, but "that seems like a personal problem." This is incredibly dismissive. Almost all the "advantages for employees" are personal. How is "No commuting time or stress" not a personal benefit? The advantages for remote work are almost entirely being sold that they are better for people . If someone has a personal problem with an aspect of it, then it should be taken seriously. Imagine if…

Where do we draw the line though? Do we draw the line? At what point do my personal preferences/issues (and trust me I have plenty of my own) become my team's/workplace's problem? I certainly fall closer to the side of "it's my job as a professional to find a situation that doesn't drive me nuts", which is probably where our disagreement might arise. (Candidly, and unfortunately, it's probably born out of the pragmat…

> At what point do my personal preferences/issues (and trust me I have plenty of my own) become my team's/workplace's problem?

At the point when the company is losing value and opportunities that you could be providing. It's a business.

To be clear: whether or not it's economical to deal with this problem also matters.

Re: Remote Only

#44

Post by s-shellfish »

existencebox wrote: post #39
s-shellfish wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to try using a writing style less similar to coding. I don't know if I'm noticing a trend between an influx of new users from reddit after their BS UI redesign, but your text can get quite dense (it's not lacking in information that makes sense). Did upvote you because I feel you made some very experienced and work-aware points.

Meta-comment: You're right, and it's a weakness I've observed in my own posts for years now. There are other commentators that often come into HN threads I post in, and make my point better+more succinctly than I could have. I wish I could replicate/learn from those examples better. I think it's less of a redditism and my own overly-loquatious style/attempting to avoid misunderstanding through verboseness. The feedba…

It's a life long habit to unlearn, because you have to balance the skill set.

When you are intending to speak to an audience, I think it matters to know your audience, which gets complicated, when the audience is constantly shifting.

Cheers!

Re: Remote Only

#45

Post by ghaff »

eanzenberg wrote: post #26

Its hard to have remote junior developers in my experience. Certain things are much easier explained in person than over conferencing software.

Not a developer but a product manager in a previous life. Comms channels have changed a lot. But it's still really hard for me to imagine coming out of school into a remote position. Today, I'm great with being 90% remote (from home). But I can't really imagine starting out that way.

Re: Remote Only

#46

Post by prawn »

enraged_camel wrote: post #42
chpmrc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes that the only place a remote worker can work from is their home. There is nothing more detrimental to a person's psyche. Cafes and coworking spaces are the most obvious and effective solution to this problem. I made countless friends while working remotely and a good 90% of them I met in a coworking space (and the so called "digital nomad" community is made of some really awesome people). Plus you have t…

I got a 3 monitor setup at home, which basically quadrupled my productivity. I now work from coffee shops only if I’m doing “shallow work” - lots of small tasks, none of which requires deep thinking. For example if I need to answer a bunch of emails I’ll do that from a coffee shop.

I think this is a great balance and something I'm interested in trying more. I have three displays at home and four displays at my co-working space desk, but I'm interested in periodically using a local pub for sessions of 2-3 hours to do single-screen work over a beer. e.g., dealing with emails, invoicing, etc.

Re: Remote Only

#48

Post by prawn »

chpmrc wrote: post #21
hartator wrote: post #6

> Disadvantages > Scares investors - Scares some partners - Scares some customers - Scares some potential employees, mostly senior non-technical hires - Onboarding is harder, first month feels lonely We do a full remote policy at SerpApi.com, however I found this disadvantages list a bit dishonest, they are more way numerous and important, the most obvious are missing real human contacts (and it doesn't get easier wi…

This assumes that the only place a remote worker can work from is their home. There is nothing more detrimental to a person's psyche. Cafes and coworking spaces are the most obvious and effective solution to this problem. I made countless friends while working remotely and a good 90% of them I met in a coworking space (and the so called "digital nomad" community is made of some really awesome people). Plus you have t…

Agree completely. The power of remote work is not just avoiding your commute and working in pyjamas, but being free to choose your environment. You could work for a company based in a big, expensive city, but live hours away in a smaller town.

Or perhaps your partner works in a regional area, but you can take a tech job from afar rather than be limited by the local market.

Re: Remote Only

#49

Post by joeax »

toddsiegel wrote: post #16

> People don't have to say when they are working. This is a bad idea. People should not have to work all on the same schedule, but having some shared understanding of when people work or take time off is certainly a good thing.

I think it shouldn't be necessary, but people should do it as a courtesy. It's like a PTO calendar. It's just nice to know when people will be around, especially if your environment requires some collaboration.

Re: Remote Only

#50

Post by ludston »

sushisource wrote: post #28
allday wrote: post #18

> Save on compensation due to hiring in lower cost regions Pay people what they're worth regardless of where they live. If you have a developer in Nigeria or Ukraine or Vietnam that is as equally capable as a developer in the Bay Area, they should be paid the same. Doing otherwise, at best, perpetuates Western hegemony, and at worst is simply racism.

This is a bit ridiculous. It's not hegemony or racism. It's how markets work. People in those markets have fewer opportunities for highly paid employment. As a result, employers have more leverage in negotiations. It's as simple as that.

His is a moralistic argument. I expect he understands the mechanism at play here.
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