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China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

economist.com

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Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#41

Post by havemylife »

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

> The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy

Unfortunately if you compare Islamic societies in the late 19th/early 20th centuries to those from middle of the 20th to now it's seemingly become regressive and insular.

Let's not forget that if you go back a few centuries further Islamic societies were progressing and preserving scientific knowledge while Christendom was rolling around in mud (I'm exaggerating).

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#42

Post by ironjunkie »

oblong wrote: post #22
duxup wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But we at least must do something about it" Like oppress an entire region of people who aren't committing violence to get to the handful who are?

Gaza shows that handful can easily become most of the population if you let it get out of control. The left's deep love and devotion to a religion that oppresses their other favoured groups - gays and women - astonishes me.

Gaza is not a religion problem, it is a human right problem. Israel is scandalously denying human people living in Gaza any dignity in their living, after stealing their land and oppressing them for years.

I'm sick to see how much America is getting complicit with this. and happy to see that most of Europe realizes what is really going on there.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#43

Post by kevingadd »

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

"We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor" is an incredibly misinformed take. Christian fundamentalists are still well armed and causing trouble in the United States on a regular basis, even if the Crusades haven't happened in a while. The death toll is sizable.

Big names in evangelical culture with TV air time or even visits to the White House also trumpet on a regular basis that the end times are near, blood will need to be spilled, the muslim hordes are invading, etc. Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem was literally a move designed to please Christian fundamentalists who view that as a step towards the End Times, and the reaping that follows it.

At most, Christian fervor is more polite now, if only because there are fewer lands left for them to conquer and they're more comfortable.

Context: I spent a decade in the ministry.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#44

Post by cromwellian »

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

Not all Islam is the same. Indonesian islamic culture is not the same as Turkish, or Arabian. It's way too simplistic to lump the situation of every country together.

Are a minority of the people of Xinjiang committing violent acts because they want a Caliphate and to convert Han chinese, or are they doing it because the Uighurs are treated very badly by the Chinese government and they want autonomy and rallying around a common religious identity is their own recourse, especially if they want help from overseas?

Why do we not treat the Northern Irish who rallied around their religious identity and attracted the sympathies and support of American Irish?

Why when Tibetan Buddhists commit violence we don't say it's their religion and immediately start looking for geo-political or economic reasons?

When people are abused, tribes develop and they rally around whatever they have left: skin color, language, religion. While I have problems with Islam's doctrine, and religion in general (especially Abrahamic religions), it's extremely simplistic to attribute everyone's motivations and actions to the doctrine and not look at what drove individuals to commit acts against the state.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#45

Post by jfaucett »

bobthepanda wrote: post #16
volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

Usually oppressing a major marginalized group with blunt, heavy-handed approaches only serves to intensify local support. Particularly if two reasons for marginalization coincide greatly (say, ethnicity and religion) See: Catalans, Scotland, Kashmir, Palestine, Tuaregs in Mali, etc.

> Usually oppressing a major marginalized group with blunt, heavy-handed approaches only serves to intensify local support.

I think that is at best fragile as a general statement. I would argue that increases in local support are dependent on other factors besides heavy-handedness or harshness, and that these vary on a case by case basis. For a plethora of counter-examples see:

The history of the Jewish people, Native Americans during colonialism, the anabaptists or the calvinists in European history, the Muslim populations after the conquest of Granada.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#46

Post by kfrzcode »

surfanddurf wrote: post #31

I think we, as the world, need to counter this by 1.) Start moving factories out China, back into your local country. It could be an upgrade for companies to upgrade to more automated factories. Furthermore, it fights against China's agenda of 'Made in China in 2025', which they expect to make....everything in China. 2.) Shame companies that are investing further in China, destroying jobs in your local country. 3.) S…

> the world

FWIW, 20% of the world is China. They also manufacture a lot of things. Also it'a a huge country with a huge tapestry of interwoven peoples and problems.

"The world" isn't just going to turn the other cheek and oust what will probably be the next global superpower.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#47

Post by ironjunkie »

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #4

I keep telling people about this and their unconcerned reactions really worry me.

People are only getting concerned by the "hype thing of the day". (today it is the 1500 immigrant children lost, yesterday it was some battle in Syria)

They don't care about things until a mob of similar people care about it. It is group thinking and virtue signaling at its peak

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#48

Post by [deleted] »

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

[deleted]

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#49

Post by [deleted] »

volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

[deleted]

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#50

Post by nkoren »

lsd5you wrote: post #13
volgo wrote: post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

> which used to be just as bad as Islamic fundamentalism This is unsubstantiated even in mediaeval times. For example the crusades were minor skirmishes compared to what is the invasion of spain and the balkans - not to mention all the other places in Africa, Asia and the middle east. It is also implies that Islam can be reformed (because it's just another religion) and is just behind for developmental reasons, but t…

Bullshit. You want proof that doesn't appeal to the Quran? Fine.

In long-Islamic countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Egypt, there are a large number of pre-existing minority religions: Yazidis, Mandeans, Samaritans, and a number of others -- as well as long-established Jewish and Christian communities. Those communities have been surrounded by Islam for more than a thousand years, and while they've undoubtedly got some legitimate complaints about Islam, the fact is that they're still there.

Compare and contrast to Christianity. Before Christianity took over, Europe, like the Middle East was a rich tapestry of pre-existing religions. None of them survived: they were universally exterminated with extreme prejudice. This was not a gentle process: Norway, for example, was Christianised by as man whose favoured way of dealing with stubborn pagans was to force iron rods down their throats and force poisonous snakes into them.

So no, Christianity wasn't a more tolerant religion. The absence of any survivors -- in contrast to Islam -- is a testament to this.

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