Finland's cities are havens for library lovers • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#41

Post by keithpeter » Sun, May 20, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

design-of-homes wrote: post #13

Areading314 wrote: post #2

Whats so great about libraries? Seems like a very inefficient way to store/disseminate information in 2018

> "What's so great about libraries? Seems like a very inefficient way to store/disseminate information in 2018" I'm going to repeat something I've said previously on Hacker News: people underestimate how much information in books isn't online and just how much useful information is still tied up in those books. Many of us assume everything is mostly online and so it's our first port of call for any research or knowle…

UK/England: branch libraries in outlying suburbs and small towns/out of town estates are closing as a result of changes in the local authority funding formula devised by the national government. The larger cities have a central library with a full range of services.

In the UK there is the inter-library loan service. As the name suggests, I can track down a reference to a book, then I can request the book via the inter-library loan service, where it is delivered to my local library. I can then borrow the book or consult it on the premises (depends on cost/rarity of the book). Most public libraries will charge a fee, usually a few pounds.

The COPAC library catalogue tells me which university libraries contain copies of the book I want to read which can speed up the inter-library loan turn around (usually 3 weeks).

https://copac.jisc.ac.uk/

To me this management of information that has not yet been digitised and that is not widely disseminated is very valuable now and again. Discovery and search made more efficient by free use of (expensively gathered) metadata on a public database.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#42

Post by manemobiili » Sun, May 20, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

Havens for library lovers? Yes! I've only lived in small finnish town's of 15 000 people. Currently in Kuusamo, where father of irc (Jarkko Oikarinen) is from. IMHO, most of these town's are bleak APART from the libraries. Sure, selections are often small & dated, it's hard to find anything programming related that's not HTML, C# or java. It's not all bad - my current location has surprised me with a math book from 2017. Kindle is still essential for me to learn things. Maybe not everything like languages that have audio cd's on the back or painting that rely on the pictures. Technology related fields tends to move quickly. And it's cool to store documents of your own. All i need is a kindle and a notebook (one with pen and paper). One gripe i have with books was holding pages open with one hand and writing notes down in other. This is annoyance with small page books mostly. Ergonomics aside, i found surprising that some libraries have all these gizmos. I find it ridiculous, but where else could these urban crowds go to?

This week i had to do a movie review, i don't really watch film's or show's so i don't have netflix or anything. Library was a easy solution to this. And you get to chat with the clerk about the film while at it.

So while i find libraries filling with these ridiculous gizmos, i agree that there are more use cases for libraries than reading itself.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#43

Post by fsloth » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:33 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #37

fsloth wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digital has hardly replaced analogue as the superior form of anything. Providing services digitally is more convenient but the experience is still often second rate. Inefficient? Hardly. A book in paper form is considered by many people to be superior form of digesting complex information. Secondly, a library contains a) librarians that help you find what you need b) huge curated collections of books, carefully categ…

> a library contains a) librarians that help you find what you need I wonder how long this will last in Finland, actually. Banking in Finland, for example, has slashed employees drastically and tried to get customers to do as much as possible online instead of visiting a branch and talking to a human being who has to be paid an expensive salary. So far, at libraries in Helsinki you can easily talk to a librarian who…

As long as books remain physical, labour will be required to handle them. Some parts of the library logistics can be automated, but not all. No robot is going to replace a human librarian any time soon.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#44

Post by zrobotics » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:36 PM UTC

design-of-homes wrote: post #13

Areading314 wrote: post #2

Whats so great about libraries? Seems like a very inefficient way to store/disseminate information in 2018

> "What's so great about libraries? Seems like a very inefficient way to store/disseminate information in 2018" I'm going to repeat something I've said previously on Hacker News: people underestimate how much information in books isn't online and just how much useful information is still tied up in those books. Many of us assume everything is mostly online and so it's our first port of call for any research or knowle…

This is even true for technical information. I needed to calculate heat dissipation in a HV transformer, and could not find anything online other than brief hand-wavy napkin math. Wouldn't you know it, my small-town library could get the old engineering textbook I needed next day through library loan. Not as convenient as a web page, but I'm glad I thought to check before buying the book used.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#45

Post by quadrangle » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

psychedelic wrote: post #26

This article fails to mention another reason; cities in Finland are built in such a way that going to the library is feasible. I've lived in both Finland and the U.S., and commuting in Finland is much easier. Commuting in U.S. cities takes a lot more energy, and the thought of it is often painful, so people just don't go in the first place. At least where I live...

The poor planning and sprawl in the U.S. will be our downfall, it's totally awful and tragic, and commuting to a library is just a tiny symptom. If you want to understand and engage with this topic, I suggest https://www.strongtowns.org especially the core "growth ponzi scheme" series as a start.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#46

Post by petdance » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

Areading314 wrote: post #2

Whats so great about libraries? Seems like a very inefficient way to store/disseminate information in 2018

Teaching a love of books and learning to children isn't about disseminating information.

There are also many poor folks who don't have the money for the technology you do. The library provides information services to everyone, regardless of social class or ability to pay. What if you were poor and looking for a job and had no computer or phone? To many, the library is a lifeline.

http://www.ala.org/news/news/pressreleases2010/april2010/poo...

The library is a safe place to go after school. In my town, the library hosts an after-school snack program sponsored by the local food bank. http://mchenrycountyliving.com/event/school-snack-program/

I know that for most of us on Hacker News, we swim in technology and information, but for many others in society, the library is their entry to that world.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#47

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Sun, May 20, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #43

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a library contains a) librarians that help you find what you need I wonder how long this will last in Finland, actually. Banking in Finland, for example, has slashed employees drastically and tried to get customers to do as much as possible online instead of visiting a branch and talking to a human being who has to be paid an expensive salary. So far, at libraries in Helsinki you can easily talk to a librarian who…

As long as books remain physical, labour will be required to handle them. Some parts of the library logistics can be automated, but not all. No robot is going to replace a human librarian any time soon.

I was speaking about the possibility of slashing librarian numbers only in their role as customer-facing reference staff who help people look up information. Of course there will remain a place for some human librarians behind the scenes.

That said, Helsinki libraries have already automated a great deal. You can easily borrow items or reserve spaces without ever having to talk to a human being.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#48

Post by stordoff » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #41

design-of-homes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What's so great about libraries? Seems like a very inefficient way to store/disseminate information in 2018" I'm going to repeat something I've said previously on Hacker News: people underestimate how much information in books isn't online and just how much useful information is still tied up in those books. Many of us assume everything is mostly online and so it's our first port of call for any research or knowle…

UK/England: branch libraries in outlying suburbs and small towns/out of town estates are closing as a result of changes in the local authority funding formula devised by the national government. The larger cities have a central library with a full range of services. In the UK there is the inter-library loan service. As the name suggests, I can track down a reference to a book, then I can request the book via the inte…

You also sometimes need a particular book even if the information is available online. I was self-studying for some A-levels, and needs the books that were based on the curriculum. I put in a request with my local library, and a few days later I had a stack of six (or so) books waiting for me.

I still wish I'd found more time to make use of the Cambridge University Library during my degree. It's a tremendous place to work, but I never really took full advantage of it.

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#49

Post by m0ck » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

sandelz wrote: post #22

I live in mid sized Finnish city with about 60 000 people (Seinäjoki) and library (built ~10 years ago) is one of those things you never hear people talking bad about. If I remember correctly our library served as an example when designing Oodi library in Helsinki since it portraits a "new library style" municipalities are reaching for. The goal was to get people to stay there instead of just fetching the article the…

What a coincidence, Seinäjoki happens to be the only Finnish city I know (besides Helsinki), because The Dudesons were born there :)

Re: Finland's cities are havens for library lovers

#50

Post by andrepd » Sun, May 20, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

Wow. I have nothing to say except this is great. Especially the concept of library as a multifunctional "space of learning", beyond merely books, but also socialisation spaces, cinema, lectures and talks, a makerspace, etc. All built with a strong sense of community and participation.