Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#41

Post by kevindqc » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #36

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

I can beat you to death with a hammer or stab you to death with a knife. Should we not build hammers and knives? Should hammers and knives be subject to KYC laws? Sure you can argue that it's different because those are things the common man can get whereas on the state can afford surveillance dragnets and drones but it wasn't that long ago that only the state could afford computers. Edit: Apparently I struck a nerve…

Are hammers and knives designed and bought to kill people?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#42

Post by fredley » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #36

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

I can beat you to death with a hammer or stab you to death with a knife. Should we not build hammers and knives? Should hammers and knives be subject to KYC laws? Sure you can argue that it's different because those are things the common man can get whereas on the state can afford surveillance dragnets and drones but it wasn't that long ago that only the state could afford computers. Edit: Apparently I struck a nerve…

The difference is between creating a hammer, and creating a hammer specifically for the purpose of efficiently killing humans.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#43

Post by mtgx » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

Google leaders are either very naive and actually think the Pentagon wouldn't repurpose their tech for killing people, or they know exactly that this is how it will used but they agreed to sell it anyway, because money.

I'm much more inclined to believe it's the latter.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#44

Post by whb07 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #30

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

>Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clinton’s presidency. He didn’t do it because of the potential to kill a Saudi prince he was meeting at that time. Here's an article on that very thing. It didn't mention anything about a Saudi Prince though. http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-bill-clinto... But your points are valid. Like anything, it cou…

There were many missed opportunities. But I'm mainly pointing that one out as an example of what could be done with better tech[0].

As far as your other points, I think they are all valid. In this country we still have the press to bring up rampant abuses, and other branches of the government to keep the executive in check. I suppose as long as the other branches are willing to keep each other in check, then its better for everyone to include US citizens.

You also have to remember that the people in the military aren't robots (not yet at least). They are regular citizens joining a volunteer army for a multitude of reasons, many of which are to serve honorably and of course the steady paycheck and college benefits. Most of the military does a 4 year stint and they go back to being civilians like you and I.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/02/...

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#45

Post by walshemj » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

You mean like those "fertilizer plants" that a certain European company sold to sadam ?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#46

Post by anthony_romeo » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #36

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

I can beat you to death with a hammer or stab you to death with a knife. Should we not build hammers and knives? Should hammers and knives be subject to KYC laws? Sure you can argue that it's different because those are things the common man can get whereas on the state can afford surveillance dragnets and drones but it wasn't that long ago that only the state could afford computers. Edit: Apparently I struck a nerve…

If you were to try and kill me with a knife, your life is on the line as well. If you try to kill me with a drone, your risk is only the money and time spent on the drone. There is quite a difference.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#47

Post by astrodust » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #45

mmjaa wrote: post #17

I once worked for a large industrial group in Europe. The kind that has a bit of a piece of every little pie there is - military, transportation, etc. I was pretty happy working there .. until I got a demo from the 'defence' group. They demonstrated the willingness to push the company's technology into heinous, heinous territory. The kind of thing where a drone would be able to follow a single person in a crowd, and…

You mean like those "fertilizer plants" that a certain European company sold to sadam ?

There's an extraordinarily fine line between agricultural fertilizers and industrial explosives.

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#48

Post by mtgx » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

And the internet has allowed for much more "targeted surveillance" too, from across the world.

Guess how it's been used? It's been used to "target" everyone. Why? Because it's gotten cheap and easy enough to use on many more people at once - just how automated drone strikes will be soon.

I think you're naive if you think this will "improve" war conditions. Here's one story that may bring you back to reality, and about how these automated drone strikes are more likely to be used in the future:

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180501-journalists-chall...

Do you think this guy was a victim of "inaccurate" drone attacks and "collateral damage"?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#49

Post by sametmax » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

whb07 wrote: post #23

I’d like to offer the point of view that if the drones become better and more surgical in their precision, it would reduce civilian casualties. Like it or not the world is full of extremists who would like nothing more than to hurt innocent people. There is no “oh just send the cops and arrest them!” route to take. Shit, just look at the time Osama bin Laden could have been bombed with a tomahawk missile during Clint…

But again this assume the people giving order to the drone are the good guys.

But I never seen any good guys in my history books or in the news.

Hence I always assume, when given a power to somebody, that the person doesn't have my best interest in mind.

Let's all remember it's possible any of our country become one day a dictatorship. Just because we enjoyed a lot of freedom for the last decades doesn't exempt us from still working like we can loose it at any moment. Because we definitly can.

More pragmatically, with powerful AI, giant communications nets, huge database of everything and everybody, cameras with facial detection and wire typing everywhere, do you really want to add drones to the collections of what the power that be can do ?

Re: Google employees reportedly quit over military drone AI project

#50

Post by astrodust » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

ythn wrote: post #11

DINKDINK wrote: post #4

You'd think that killing people would be covered by "Do no evil"

It's not directly killing people. That's like saying helping improve GPS satellites kills people because weapons systems use GPS and would benefit from increased accuracy.

Just like the "do no harm" oath taken by doctors means "If you gotta kill like twenty people to save a hundred, get on with it."